Quality debate?

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If recent comments over at New Mandala are representative examples of thinking in Thailand, then all I can say is God help Thailand!

Samun Praram // Feb 12, 2009 at 3:50 pm

If we talk about the principle of Universal Human Right…then don’t you think the Thais have the rights to respect and revere their King and uphold the law, in which the country sees is best for them.

What most people in the west think is that the 65 million people in Thailand are so backward because their laws restrict them from what many in the west think is the rights everyone should have. But we’re ignoring the fact that this may be what they want to believe in. This maybe something that is important to them. Surely, they have the right to think and decide for themselves.

Sometimes we have to look beyond our belief, judgment and society and stop imposing that we think is right on other people. It is right that everyone should have the rights to basic rights and needs, freedom of speech, etc, but think about it…is there really such a thing as a Universal Human Rights?

I think we need to be more open-minded when we travel to other countries and respect the law. Taking action in what we believe in is a good thing, but respecting others’ beliefs and culture is also appropriate when you’re on ther others’ soil. We should ask ourelves…are we doing this because these people are being deprived of thier rights and need our help or are we doing this because we think we are more superior…we are right and they are wrong?

Jesse // Feb 12, 2009 at 11:46 am

Every country, there are rules that we do not agree, however, you must follow the law in the particular country you are in.

He is well awared of the consequences and yet he chose to do it. No matter how many copies the book’d sold, he still broke the law in the kingdom of Thailand !

Maitri // Feb 13, 2009 at 3:52 am

God help Thailand is people like Red Giles ever take power. We can look to our east or west to see what socialism does to any country that adopts this sickening ideology. Left-wing Westernizers like Giles, Taksin, and all their cohorts have lost touch with what it means to be a Thai. They would be more at home in Hollywood than in Bangkok.

Thailand is a Buddhist and the Thai people will never adopt the ideas of Giles Ungpakor with his advocacy of abortion, republicanism, and surrender to the Muslims of the south. Instead, we should return to what we are: the natural order of Thai civilization.

Look at Russia, After suffering under 70 years of Socialism, they are now returning to their historic and religious roots. We Thais should do the same. It is past time to undo the tragedy of 1932 and, once again, become officially the Buddhist Kingdom of Siam, wherein we can find the true spirit of being Thai.

None of the above posters may even be Thai (Jesse especially), but unfortunately those viewpoints do not seem uncommon.

IMO, these views are much more dangerous than those of Giles - You only have to look as far as Sri Lanka to see the outcome of ignoring human rights and trying to establish a Buddhist state!

Best thing I've seen written about the situation in Thailand

Two important statements about Thailand were released overnight.

Giles Ji Ungpakorn released his 'Red Siam' manifesto. Here's an extract:

It is not for one person to determine the common platform, which must of necessity be a collective decision. But as a staring point I offer the following ideas, the ideas of one red-shirted citizen.

1. We must have freedom of expression and the freedom to choose our own government without repression and fear.

2. We must have equality. We have to abolish the mentality of "big people-little people". We must abolish the practice of crawling to the royal family. Politicians must be accountable to the electorate, not to shadowy conniving figures beyond popular control. We need to build a culture where citizens respect each other. We must have freedom and equality of the sexes and among different ethnicities. We must respect women, gays and lesbians. We must respect Burmese, Laotians, Cambodians and the Muslim Malay people in the south. Women must have the right to choose safe abortions. Refugees should be treated with friendship and dignity as any civilised society would do.

3. Our country must be a welfare state. Taxes must be levied on the rich. The poor are not a burden, but are partners in developing the country. People should have dignity. The present exploitative society stifles individuals and destroys personal creativity.

4. In our country the king should honour his constitutional role and stop intervening in politics. But the ruling class in Thailand gain much from using the monarchy and they will not easily stop doing this. Therefore the best way to solve this problem is to build a republic where all public positions are elected and accountable.

5. For too long Thai society has been under the iron heel of the generals. We must cut the military budget and abolish the influence of the army in society ensuring that it can no long be an obstacle to democracy.

6. We must have justice. The judges should not claim power from the crown in order to stop people criticising their decisions. We must change the way that "contempt of court" laws are used to prevent accountability. We need to reform the justice system root and branch. We need a jury system. The police must serve the population, not extract bribes from the poor.

7. Citizens in towns and communities must take part in the management of all public institutions such as state enterprises, the media, schools and hospitals.

8. Our country must modernise. We need to develop the education system, transport and housing. We should create energy from wind and solar power to protect the environment.

9. Our country must be peace loving, not start disputes with neighbouring countries or support wars.

I fully support all but the last sentence of point #4 - instead I would seek the abolishment of the Privy Council, and an amendment to the lese majeste laws such that only the palace can make the charge.

I'm sure there will be much discussion of Ji's manifesto (even in Thailand), and kudos to him for sticking to his principles (unlike the current PM!)

Now, on to the BEST thing I have seen written about the Thai situation: it's here

Hat's off to the writer - I wish I could have written something like that.

Red Shirts make four demands

(photo courtesy of 2bangkok.com)

The four demands are:
1. The government to take legal action against the People's Alliance for Democracy
2. To purge Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya
3. To re-enforce the 1997 constitution
4. To dissolve the House (after the readopting the 1997 charter).

What, if anything, should the Abhisit led government do in relation to these demands?

When the PAD started making demands of the PPP government, these are some of the things I said:
September 7, 2008
'The government should not give in to the PAD, but they also have a responsibility to try to move the country forward'.
August 31, 2008
'Even if PAD do not moderate their demands, Samak and the PPP need to act in a competent and reasonable manner, which I think means they should do the following:
- Address all of the PAD concerns in a reasonable manner.
- Dismiss (with proper explanation) those demands that are unreasonable and outlandish.
- Agree that the constitutional amendment process be a consultative process with parliamentary debate, followed by a public referendum.
- Undertake a public education program outlining how they have addressed the legitimate concerns of the PAD, and also outline how the unreasonable demands are bad for democracy.
- Once the above has been done, the PPP should set a deadline for the PAD protesters to disperse, and if the PAD protesters still fail to disperse then the deadline should be enforced with appropriate/reasonable force (such as tear gas & water cannons).
Simply dismissing the PAD as an unlawful mob and falling back on its own electoral legitimacy is not good enough and in my opinion is poor governance.
It is up to the government to act in a competent and reasonable manner, even if the PAD leadership wont! '


For some reason, the PPP failed to take my advice on those occasions - I wonder why?


The rest is history!

Again, in the interests of moving the country forward, here are my suggestions to this latest set of demands by protesters:

1. PAD prosecution:
Abhisit to give clear instructions to whichever departments are in charge of the PAD prosecutions, that the charges must be laid withing 14 days, or the department heads will be removed from their positions.

2. Kasit removal:
This should be done at the same time as other cabinet reshuffles, also within 14 days
(No need to concede anything, just do it as a goodwill gesture in the interests of reconciliation)

3. Constitution:
Even if it could be done, bringing back the 1997 constitution will not resolve the problems - Regarding, the constitution, I make the same suggestion to this Democrat led government as I gave the PPP led government (see above quotes & links)

4. Dissolve the house: (Update: If only I knew more about Chumpol's 'irresistible force' at the time of the original post:)
There is no need for Abhisit to do anything on this, other than to explain that the government came to power within the rules, and that a future dissolution and elections will also be held within the rules.
He could also explain that the same people that the UDD are now complaining about were once members of the PPP led coalition, so the UDD complaints are disingenuous anyway.



As for dealing with the protests generally, my advice to the Democrat government is the same as it was to the PPP led government.

Lets see if the outcome this time is any different.

Abhisit the Monster - a creation of whom, or what?

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khikwai has an excellent blog on The Abhisit Tragedy
Bangkok Pundit is also taking the opportunity to run strongly on similar themes.

I agree Abhisit's handing of the Rohingyan refugee treatment issue has been very disappointing (to put it mildly).

From where I sit, the way Abhisit has handled Rohingya matter looks very much like how a certain popular predecessor would have acted, so I wonder can Abhisit's action all be put down to him being a captive of his military masters, or are other factors also at play?

I doubt Abhisit's Eton/Oxford education is one such factor, nor is the Democrat Party ideology such a factor, but could Abhisit (in a misguided way) be giving the thai people what he thinks they want?

Has Abhisit, the politician, 'learned' something from the way Thaksin retained immense popularity after brushing aside many human rights abuse controversies (which were mainly raised and championed by foreign media and organisations)?

Whatever Abhisit does, he will be criticized.
Some will criticize because they are on the opposing side of the fence politically/ideologically - that's to be expected, and should be taken in his stride as it's just what oppositions do to try to remain relevant.
Others will never be able to accept how he came to power, as it does not fit within their notion of 'democracy' - that too is understandable, but is easily deflected in the context of thai political practices.
Many criticize him for failing to punish the PAD leaders - IMO, it's not up to him to do such things as politicians should not interfere with the legal processes - all Abhisit can reasonably be expected to do is request that the legal authorities pursue the cases expediently, without fear or favour.


My biggest criticism of Abhisit is that he is taking away hope.

Kasit as Foreign Minister, the website crackdown, and the Rohingya refugee issues are glaring examples that Thailand has another leader who puts vested interests before simply doing the right thing.

Shame on you Abhisit for taking away hope that a Thaksin, Samak, Somchai is not as good as it gets.

Signs that the red shirts (pro-democracy?) activists have lost the plot

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Exhibit A:

The Nation Red-shirted people raid Santi Asoke branch in Chiang Mai

Chiang Mai - Some 150 red-shirted supporters of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra raided the Chiang Mai branch of Santi Asoke Buddhist sect to hunt for Chamlong Srimuang.
They raided the Phupha Nam Fah Monastery at 1 pm.
They stormed through a police barricade, which was formed 20 metre before the monastery's entrance.
Some 100 elderly people, women, children and Santi Asoke monks gathered at a pavilion and remained in silence during the raid by the angry protesters.
Some monks were standing still and the lay flowers were sitting in meditation without responding the shouts and aggressive acts of the protesters.
Some protesters hit some monks at their shoulders with "feet clappers".
The protesters raided the place following rumours that Chamlong Srimuang, a co-leader of the People's Alliance for Democracy, visited the monastery Thursday night.
They dispersed nearly an hour later after searching through the place and did not find Chamlong.


A low blow attacking monks.


Exhibit B:

The Nation Red shirt protesters call for Singapore and Burma to boycott Asean Summit

Red shirt protesters who are loyal to ex-PM Thaksin Shinawatra called for leaders of Singapore and Burma to boycott the upcoming Asean Summit in Thailand.
They rallied in front of both embassies on Friday and submitted petitions to the leaders through representatives of the embassies.
The protesters waved banners and posters, written in English, criticising Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, his government and Foreign Minister Kasit Piromya.
Thailand will host Asean Summit in Hua Hin next month. It had rescheduled the summit several times due to street protests.
Veera Musikapong, Jakrapob Penkair and Nuttavudh Saikue, who were hosts of controversial Truth Today TV programme, a pro-Thaksin Shinawatra media outlet, were among leaders of the protesters.
Reading the petition, Jakrapob said that Abhisit Government was not real representatives of Thai people. Moreover the appointment of Kasit had against the public's views as he joined the protesters after they seized the airports.
"We support Asean, but could not support the (Thai) government that had no legitimacy to administer the country," he said.
A Burmese diplomat received the petition from Jakrapob.
Later the red shirt protesters marched to Singapore Embassy on Sathorn Road and submitted the petition to the embassy's first secretary, who said that Singapore could not get involved in the matter because it was internal issue.
However he will forward the petition to Singapore government.


Just great - demanding those two bastions of democracy to boycott the Asean summit.


Caution: Both stories came from The Nation, so make of them what you will!

Ethical Travel

There has long been a debate about the ethics of travel to Burma - does it help the dictators, or do the benefits trickle down to the people?

I wonder, why does there not seem to be such a debate for travel to Thailand?

Here is a quick list of things that most tourists choose to turn a blind eye to when travelling to Thailand:
- Ill treatment of Rohingya refugees & other minorities
- Nonsensical lese majeste charges against journalists, academics, writers, students etc
- Sexual exploitation including of minors
- Rampant corruption by government officials, military & police
- Military & elites continued disrespect of democracy & general repression of the poor masses
- Lack of freedom of speech (blocking websites etc)
- Environmental/pollution neglect & cover ups

That's just a quick list off the top of my head - I'm sure there are many other things of concern.

I'm not advocating stopping travelling to Thailand - that would hurt too many people who rely on tourism - but I do think tourists need to be more aware of the issues, instead of turning a blind eye just so they can continue enjoying the cheap travel, goods, food, accommodation, sex etc on offer.

My major concern is that tourists, by voting with their feet and turning a blind eye to obvious wrongs, are contributing to allowing those wrongs to continue to be perpetrated.

Of course, it's not only the many tourists who turn a blind eye - most mainstream media are compliant accomplices, and the Australian government performance in the Harry Nicolaides matter also seems to have been very disappointing (from where I sit).

PS. No, Dr T has not paid me to write this - I still think he's a part of the problem, not the solution.

UPDATE:
I've been thinking more about this issue, and wanted to clarify that I definitely don't think stopping travelling to Thailand will help make things better, and could risk making things worse.
We need to remember, if it wasn't for the tourists to the Similan Islands who blew the whistle on refugee treatment, then that issue would have remained buried and would have been much easier to cover up.
Kudos to those tourists for raising the issue, and also to the select media outlets that investigated and pushed the story.