At a time of fear, when the military is effectively a member of the government coalition, and the new army chief is saying things like "everyone is obligated, in an act of loyalty, to root out certain individuals", it's worth remembering the past, and hope that lessons have been learnt.
We all know about Thaksin's popular "drug war", and the October 1973 and 1976 massacres, but less is known of the horrific efforts to suppress communist suspects in the south in the early 1970's:
Policy of government to "decisively flush out""merely followed orders"
Arrested and most underwent "re-education"
They bore no grudges."Each side claimed to fight for a better ruling system"
"Danger lurked in every corner"
(h/t to James)
90 comments:
What's the source of all this? Don't know if it really happened or not but it looks more like an urban legend - 3,000 people burned alive? Come on.
I've heard stories about it before, but today is the first time I came across that article - hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me can provide more information.
Documenting atrocities is fine, but do I sense some implied accusations in your post?
Can't take your outrage seriously when you throw you weight behind the party led by the biggest supporters of those bygone regimes and forgive them everything.
StanG: Which party are you talking about? (I don't support any party, but I do support the right of the Thai electorate to elect and discard who they choose).
Please provide more details of your apparent allegation.
(btw, wondering if you see any similarities between the biggest supporters of those bygone regimes and those who are supporting the 'Democrat' Party now?)
Just to underline what Hobby is saying in response to StanG's comment......Thaksin was not around in 1970's at least as far as politics and military atrocities are concerned ,whereas the ever present "Military Out of Control" as asiasentinnel describes the Royal Thai Army were.......for the benefit of neutral observers.
This guy seemed to get support from certain places, no matter what he did (or perhaps because of it?).
and this:
"In March 1999, Thanom was nominated to become a member of the honorary Royal Guard by Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai"
Make you wonder doesn't it?
I'm talking of the red shirt party, of course, led by Samak and Chalerm, two biggest supporters of those bygone atrocities.
Hobby, you always make a big deal of 1976 massacre, but then cheer Chalerm, who enjoyed watching the lynching show, to lead the country to "democracy".
It's a fake outrage, you don't give a hoot about those lives, you just use their deaths to advance your own agenda.
Thai history isn't as black and white as you believe, btw. Your incitement of another lynch mob to permanently slot people into "good" and "bad" is also driven by agenda, I believe.
StanG:
1. My pointing out the similarities to past events is an attempt to warn against more lynch mobs ocurring.
2. It is you who is one of the main cheerleaders for the Thai 'system' and those who perptrate such crimes.
3. It is you who is against democracy in Thailand, and therefore against the Thai people.
4. Did you notice my reference and link to the drug war?
5. Please provide specific instances of where have I cheered Chalerm or Samak and I'll address that aspect of your accusation then.
1. Hollow warning, as you don't apply it to reds, and they are the ones running lynch mobs now. From Udon Thani and Chiang Mai to "bring a liter of petrol" to "burn them" to "we'll dissolve your live".
2. Samak and Chalerm are/were the main cheerleaders of that particular aspect of the system.
3. Wonderful logic. How about this: Thai people like their King, you don't and you blame monarchy for everything under the sun, so you are against Thai people yourself.
4. I noticed the reference. Don't see the relevance.
5. You don't specifically cheer Chalerm or Samak, you just support their party and their agenda and call it something else.
Prayuth & the usual royalist cheerleaders are the real threat to the Thai people (as always).
He's one sick puppy, and has been at it again.
The generals seem to be running the government now, and it's not even about 'national security' anymore - just a warped cult idealogy, and a fear of embarrassment (how ironic:)
Why doesn't this military takeover worry you?
More from Prayuth here.
Starting to see any similarities yet StanG?
It's one thing to commemorate a coup, it's quite another to have a mass demo trying to attract UN attention to the April-May events.
Reds basically want to present themselves as a fighting force worth listening to. The fact is they won't dare to challenge the state anymore, they've lost that battle, they just feel they can get away with it in UN chief presence. Cowards.
Prayuth told them they can submit their petitions, no problem, but staging a demo is over the line.
He has that kind of powers as CRES chief and in area under emergency decree, especially in Suthep's absence. It's his job, he's not taking over the government.
Re. arrest threats - a couple of days ago he asked them to stop this graffiti nonsense and formulate their points in a civilized way. What they are doing now is illegal and the army is not going to tolerate it anymore.
They are getting massacared by the Thai state and you call them cowards?
Did you ever take the time to talk to any redshirts StanG, or are you too busy cheerleading their massacre?
During the April/May protests I recall sadly how they hoped the UN would intervene to stop them being killed by the state (again) - I'd take their idealism over your bloodthisty gloating anyday!
I called those who came out today cowards because the security forces can't really do anything to them in UN chief presence.
There were different sides to "bravery" in May, too. Some were brave, some were plain stupid, and there were those who were edging others to sacrifice their lives for better publicity.
Take Jatuporn - he lead so many people to die for his cause, so many ended in jail doing what he told them to do, and when the ball dropped he claimed immunity and his regular salary from the same state he wants to overthrow.
Now dozens of ordinary reds rot in jail without any help from their "brave" leaders who are too busy arranging multi-million baht bails for themselves.
I won't be surprised if something happens today and these "brave" leaders rejoice at the opportunity to promote their cause. They'll snatch corpses from the morgues again and stage another coffin parade. These "brave" leaders enjoy death like no other.
And your tweet calling my comments here "tripe" is another example of cowardice, btw. Why don't you resort to this low brow name calling here, if that's how you feel you should proceed in this discussion.
Not long ago, in this very blog, you were approving of a new coup if it goes your way. Now you tweet elsewhere that I'm the biggest coup supporter?
Why won't you tweet that you'd be ok with a new coup if it restores 97 constitution?
I knew you are on twitter Stan, and preferred to post there because I've got more followers there than read this blog :)
We've already been over the new coup thing - I stand by my words, which were:
"the only coup that should be approved is one that undoes the 2006 coup, returns the 1997 constitution, and calls an immediate election (but would the coup endorser approve of that coup?)"
btw, when I said 'coup endorser, I wasn't necessarily talking about you, but the person who most analysts think makes coups possible)
I'm on twitter but not 24/7 and I don't read all of it and hardly ever scroll back, below the latest 20 or 50 latest tweets. I guess I miss a lot. I get only "mentions" notification on my phone, probably not the best setup.
The "coup that should be approved" is enough to make you no different in principle from people you condemn, you just have different ends, the means are the same. It's not even a purely theoretical exercise as former army boss, Chaisit Shinawatra, floated the idea publicly.
06 coup was at least bloodless, something no one can imagine if the new coup that "should be approved" materializes, considering the enemies you want to take on, from Prem to the top army echelon to Abhisit to their supporters.
Sorry, I'll make sure I include you in the twitter loop next time, @stangoesagain.
hey, Hobby,
looks like you're having a lot of fun proving things to denialists ? ;)
apparently there is never lack of them.
and they love to flock to your blog ! :D
BTW do u get the same feeling that there is another kind of "flush out" underway, very unprecedented, and oh so coincidentally timely ? ;)
Nice to see you have resurfaced AntiPAdshist. Hopefully it was the renewed PAD activities, and not getting wet from the floods, which have stirred you from hibernation.
Your comment was rather cryptic, so all I can say is that, when it comes to Thai politics, nothing would surprise me.
Hobby,
oh, no even PADshists are too boring for me nowadays and can't wake me up from my slumber
>>Your comment was rather cryptic
Why?
I think it is rather quite direct
I was referring to too obvious recent events of total floods in 30+ provinces.
the UNPRECEDENTED happenstance, which some say has only occurred once some 100 or more years ago. and even then I think it wasn't on such a large scale
and "Flush out" I feel is exactly what it is. because it is artificially induced, not natural. it has happened because they have opened 2 dams practically at the same time. ;)
why else water would come to places where usually never was much or any flood at all ?
and the fact is - they keep flushing those dams. that's why on TV it was said that this situation will continue for 2 months - which is again an indicator of it being artificial. because I mean - how can anyone predict the longevity of naturally occurring floods? say, as most resent flooding In Hatyai, today water has already gone - why? because this is more like a natural disaster.
artificial though - you can keep maintaining it by opening dams again and again.
I know, there might be and surely will be many arguments like "they had to", "they had no choice for the sake of saving dams" etc.
However the question is: WHY it didn't happen last year, or year before? surely those dams were not build just this year?
and also, those who manages those dams - surely they DO assess the meteorological data 24/7 and keep watch over the water level constantly. so, that means either their management was not good enough due to great incompetence - that they have waited till last moment thinking that there will be no problems, - or ...... they have purposely done so !
in either case those persons in charge would have been persecuted for such a mishandling and mismanagement, especially for the DEATHS and misplacement, of so many people and loss of livelihood, loss of crops, etc - normally in most of other countries.
but of course it will never happen in Tole-land. :D
in fact what I meant by "coincidentally timely" - because it has come at the same time as renewed activities of opposition.
so, in such a way, gov has smartly "flushed out" potential hassle.
time will tell ...
same as the article you've posted here - some 40 years later facts become known eventually. perhaps we'll know then the REAL numbers of all the people who perished in these floods. Not to mention - inevitable food shortages in months to come, due to large areas of rice fields being totally devastated, livestock lost, etc.
but there are some indications already, if you read PPT reports about floods, there is mentioned about people not getting relief because some local politicians tell them that "they've been punished" coz they didn't vote for right people ! ;)
so, now it seems less cryptic to you ? :)
- MediaWar
But how to explain the government's less than stellar handling of the flood crisis?
( A ch3 media conspiracy? ;)
Actually you might be on to something as apparently General Prayuth said "Thailand is fortunate to have flood because it brings unity to the country"
(source @tri26 on Twitter)
Could anyone really be that stupid/devious/cruel?
I would be rather surprised if he didn't say something like that !
he is such a moron, he can't even keep his tongue from flapping :D
practically he exposes himself so very stupidly.
or perhaps otherwise he is too audacious and doesn't give a sh1t at such self-exposing, and just blatantly let it be know - oh, so subtly!
but thanks for this quote of him !
to me it merely confirms what I've suspected in past few weeks. coz I mean: 1) these dams are certainly strategic objects, and I'm sure military monitors their functioning;
2) somehow both dams has been opened at very appropriate time, which coincides with his remarks - quoted by you here, - that "you red-shirts better do not rally..."
3) another VERY essential point is :
during Tsunami 2004 as I recall both army & navy were quite efficient in helping ppl there. pretty much as in any similar kind of natural disaster. army certainly have great advantage even over gov's means due to their high discipline, organization AND equipment, logistics !
then WHY do they not help PROPERLY all those people ?! surely army would have been the MOST efficient in these floods !
because they have helicopters, other similar flood-proof machinery, perhaps even amphibious. they also have mobile kitchens which could and MUST have provided fresh hot meals - instead of bags with mama-noodles and canned fish and tissue papers ! they also have organization, which certainly would always be much better than rely upon local Nai-Ampua and such corrupted to the core local authorities who share Aid and relief supplies only according to their clan & political criteria.
WHY army doesn't help as much as they CAN and SHOULD ? ;)
unless someone has told them so - not to bother much.......
....... add to that all his recent comments and remarks...
surely appearing picture fits your words "on to something ..." ! :)
for example in Hatyai, they've sent navy ship, which cooks HOT meals and delivers them by choppers to affected people. why is that?
u bet ! coz Songkhla is a stronghold of Pa P ;)
why in other 30+ provinces they can't do the same ? ;)
again, pretty simple: coz it is stronghold of some others :)
WHY Ch3 are able to be more efficient of NOT JUST TALKING, but in actually giving those people real needed FOOD - more efficient than all the military, gov of Ai-hee-sh1t and all the Amart NGOs together ?
again, answer is easy and pretty obvious: because all of them do NOT give a sh1t !
if they would've cared - surely they could actually provide PROPER relief !
UNITY my a$$ !
even though my a$$ has a deep crack in the middle - it is much more united !
:D
P.S. it might be also related to larger scale stuff going on, on a global level: steadily ensuring the food shortage at very least, and at long-term - ensuring that companies like what's its name - Monsanto? - hold the sole monopoly on seed banks, and no local folks can anymore grow their own grains and other foods without depending on corporations Monsanto to supply them seeds. which are mostly if not only are GMO by the way...
honestly, I don't care much who might think what about my thoughts, or brands them as "conspiracy theories" or whatever. I think branding some views as "conspiracy theories" is more like a Argumentum ad Himinem fallacy, a dirty trick employed by unscrupulous people who have no balls to debate decently and address the arguments of opponent w/o employing such dirty tricks.
anyway, I guess I talk too much - will shut up now.
Cheers, Hobby !
you can get back to proving things to denialists, I'll not bother you anymore
:)
- MediaWar
hobby, check this out in Bkk Post today:
Floods offer a chance for political reconciliation
"The sense of unity among the people is real. The latest opinion polls show that 92.4% of Bangkok's residents prefer the government and the opposition to join hands in solving the crisis...
The military, seen closer to the government, has extended a hand to the Northeast and sent its aircraft carrier to the South...
Now we are all united on one issue...
the title itself sounds very much like the whole thing was purposely pre-arranged for this "reconciliation", don't you think ?
and now slowly and OH, so subtly Thai Media has started playing their role in propaganda campaign on this issue...
- MediaWar
It would be disgraceful if true, but like I've said before: Nothing would surprise me :(
Hi Hobby,
I thought you'd shut down here but followed a link from another site and have found you open. I don't twitter so have no contact there.
What is the source of the red barrel stuff?
I had heard of it... of people being burned in barrels in Chiangrai, from PPT. But this is the first I've seen in print. And the diagram! It looks like Bangkok Post in tiny letters underneath?
I'm going to transcribe it, then read it. It's just unbelievable.
It's from :
Bangkok Post special publication magazine
"Oct 14, 1973 - People's Progress, 30 years on"
dated 14 October 2003
I did transcribe it and it's available at
http://www.robinlea.com/pub/RedDrums.html, or
http://www.robinlea.com/pub/RedDrums.pdf
Thanks for that JFL - I didn't know the source (got it from a twitter link provided by James)
A lot of good information is disseminated via Twitter, but its also a place to be wary of because I think there is little doubt big brother is watching.
I'll continue to rely upon you to filter twitter for me, if I may.
I put a link to this site together with a link to the transcribed article at prachatai, apropos of what I regard to be the coup of 1 October, when Prayuth took over.
I am a great believer in having multiple copies of pieces like this, just in case the 'original' is disappeared.
Thanks very much for taking the trouble to post all those .jpgs. Now people can find it by searching on the text, too.
Just checking your blog list...
Thailand jumped the shark (old)
Thailand crisis (dead?)
Siam report (dead!)
Tumbler blog (dead!)
The Nation's State (not dead, thank goodness, just resting)
Thanks for the reminder to do a clean up.
Happy to give Chandler time to get back on his feet.
I'll keep TJTS and Thai Crisis in case they ever resurface.
Tumbler seems to be blogging at Siam Voices (Asian Correspondent) now.
Mr Wrigley's Siam Report & his Twitter A/C disappeared shortly after May 19 - a real shame, but he apparently had good reasons for his vanishing act.
I don't find much to blog about now as its mostly all been said before, and much better than I can say it.
btw, Junya's blog is great, but I haven't worked out how to find out when its updated.
I just look at the numbers after
posts
* Action for People's Democracy in Thailand (3)
* Monarchy and Democracy (3)
* selected media (10)
If they get bigger I follow up :)
I know what you mean by having been said before. I comment way too much at prachatai. My excuse is... outrage at the continuing course of events and a lack of coverage, that I see anyway, of outrageous actions by the government with regard to the environment, for instance, and the very poor coverage, in English, of so many events that are 'covered'... actual dis-information of the clumsiest sort at the Bangkok Post, for instance.
There have been a few more commenteers there of late.. maybe I've run 'em all off. I hope not.
Thanks for the tip.
I haven't really had anything much to say since
this post - unfortunately, I think everything is just going around in circles until there can be honest and open discussions about the current 'system' (but, sadly, it seems the various influentual figures in Thailand have got just the system, politicians & leaders they want).
Well, I think the honest and open discussion is ongoing... just not in the MSM and in the Officially Sanctioned Narrative Sphere. And that as a result the OSNS is becoming irrelevant.
If there are elections again in Thailand, and I think there might be because the "elite" and their sycophants in the MSM have just looked into the eyes of the military and... possibly remembering the article you presented here, which they'd printed themselves in congratulation for having grabbed it all from the military back in 2003... swallowed hard and blinked.
Maybe having that coup wasn't such a good idea after all.
And if, after the next election, the "elite" is washed as far out into the Gulf of Thailand as I imagine they will be, then their OSNS will simply be replaced, totally, by what's springing up all over Thailand, they say.
Your phrase "going around in circles", reminds me of a story from my youth...
' And the Tigers were very, very angry, but still they would not let go of each others' tails. And they were so angry that they ran round the tree, trying to eat each other up, and they ran faster and faster till they were whirling round so fast that you couldn't see their legs at all.
' And they still ran faster and faster and faster, till they all just melted away, and then there was nothing left but a great big pool of melted butter (or "ghi" as it is called in India) round the foot of the tree. '
There were four tigers in the story of Little Black Sambo, who exhausted themselves fighting for primacy, and their fight allowed Sambo to recover what they had extorted and stolen from him, and their utter exhaustion after their fight turned them into dinner for Sambo and his family.
Pancakes. His Momma had Twenty-Seven, and his Daddy had Fifty-Five... and Sambo had One Hundred Sixty-Nine, 'cause he was SO hungry.
Sambo is a colonialist's story and disparaged on that ground, but the moral of the 'tail' is one we can hope to see illustrated here in Thailand by the Bureaucrats, the Plutocrats, the Military, and the more revanche members of Force Number Four in their struggle for dominance.
Hi JFL, Long time no see. I haven't read the story yet but when i take a look at it, i like it and will surely read it.May i share the link? Thanks!
Sure... it's project Gutenberg! The source of many, many great books - free!
If you share the link be prepared for harangues on political correctness, though. 'Sambo' became a term used in derision of black people in the USA, and so black people there don't like it at all. Hasn't so much to do with the story itself as with reaction to it.
I think it's a good story; that Sambo and his family are the good humans and that the greedy people are cast as tigers who destroy themselves. It smears tigers, too.
Yeah, it's pretty condescending, written by a European colonist. Still a good story about the wages of greed, and the rewards to be had in picking up the pieces.
And I like the pictures.
I found a copy of Sambo with Helen Bannerman's original illustrations, somewhat smaller than the originals I expect.
So I copied them, because her Sambo was a Tamil boy in South India, while the Sambo illustrated by Florence White Williams - the Gutenberg Sambo - is African... and that's where all the trouble in the USA comes from I suppose.
You can look at this Sambo with Bannerman's original illustrations, and read it, too,if you'd like.
And if you link to it instead of to the Gutenberg you may have to apologize less profusely.
Thanks again for the link. I find most Children's literature interesting. My favorites also include Ruth Park's "The Muddle-Headed Wombat" and Kenneth Grahame's "The Wind in the Willows".
Not sure if you have heard of this writer?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iVrHUvRKvg&feature=player_embedded#!
JFL: Seems your above comment failed to appear so I posted it for you - hope that's ok.
I don't know much about Rattawut (or any Thai writers) so will leave the conversation to you and Joy - agree he sounds American and he looks very young:)
Wow it must be toxic - I thought I posted it for you, but it still didn't come through and nor has your latest comment.
(I get the email notification, but the actual comment never appears on the site)
Will try again!
JFL: Sorry about the formatting of your posts - only way I could get them up was to redo the links.
No time to read 'literature' - I'm saving my eyes for the Thai cable leaks (to watch the germs wriggle & squirm:)
(Third try - hopefully lucky this time - this post should appear before JFL's last one - Hobby)
I had not heard of Rattawut. He seems like an American to me. Does he seem Thai to you?
I found an 'extract' from 'Sightseeing'....does it seem representative to you? I haven't yet read it. I did listen to 'The Nineties' and found it very interesting. That is complete. Maybe I will transcribe that as well. First I'll read that extract from Sightseeing. If you have other links to his writing online please post them.
If you have other young, or old, writers to share please do.
Still hasn't appeared, has it? Maybe it's radioactive or something. I found an extract from a novel, or collection of stories, or long story called Sightseeing (http://www.robinlea.com/pub/sightseeing.html) by Rattawut. I didn't like it as much as much as In the Nineties (http://www.robinlea.com/pub/InTheNineties.html). I thought In the Nineties was pretty good, more as socio-political commentary than as literature, but it was very well written. I'm not a professional appreciator, certainly not a professional depreciator, so that's just my humble opinion.
I think it would make interesting reading for ESL students. I don't know of anything else like it.
Maybe the problem was embedded links...
Have you seen Giles Ungpakorn's latest?
http://wdpress.blog.co.uk/2010/12/01/the-red-shirt-movement-in-thailand-today-10095893/
I think it is a level-headed assessment of how things stand. I don't know about the accuracy of his account of the inner workings behind the "Red Shirts" label. I'm sure something like that is going on.
I hope the red shirts themselves can see beyond the Puea Thai Party at this point... and not just give up and go back to the sad old days with Bhumijaitai. It looks like Bhumijaitai is making a major push here in Chiangrai. Big billboard with the local CEO and Abhisit... 100,000,000฿ from The Regime to the CEO for 'drought relief'... second only to Buriram (Newin Himself), which got 450,000,000฿ of the national total allocation - 850,000,000฿ - for 'drought relief' from The Regime.
There used to be a billboard of HM the King at the end of my street. It was a steel framed, jerry-built arrangement and a big wind blew it down last year. It was removed. Over the past couple of weeks a new, very substantial, concrete royal shrine has been erected to replace it, no doubt to be ready for HM's birthday. It is complete with a picture of Abhisit as well. I guess it cost 100,000,000฿.
Yes thanks I saw that on the socialist site (links.org.au)
Interesting that they no longer seem to bother blocking Giles, or only block the front page.
The people have to have someone to vote for, or they might as well give up.
If you were a potential political candidate with redshirt sympathies, what party would you join?
(Politics is usually an expensive 'business', and I'm not sure whether independent candidates get much of a go in Thailand - they are on the rise in Australia - hold the balance of power for the time being, so lets see how that turns out)
btw, I hope to get up your way one day (then I'll see how the billboards in the Rai compare:)
I would start a new party... but I don't know if that's possible. There are organizational challenges, first; then money, as you point out; and then The Regime, which might just dissolve any new party that seemed a threat.
But I think I would still do that, because otherwise... some years from now I'd be saying the same things all over again.
There are no 'quick solutions'. The coup of 2006 was a quick solution that not only put Thailand back thirty years, and its depths have not even been plumbed yet, 4 years later.
JFL, thanks so much for the transcription. Is it okay if I share it with my students?
BTW, I quite like "Priscilla the Cambodia" and "Don't Let me Die in this Place' in his collection of short stories 'Sightseeing'.'Draft Day" is also good, IMO.
Sorry abt the typo: "Priscilla the Cambodian"
I have to admit that I haven't finished listening to/reading "In the Nineties" yet. Somehow the narrator, "we',( who speaks in the voice of the middle-class, (at least that's my first impression of the narrator) irritates me ( know I should have finished the story before commenting but.... )And I know that program " Dream comes true".. it was a very condecending program IMO and allowed the middle-class to feel that they have done something good for the poor,and to wallow in self-satisfaction and complacency. ((I should finish the story first sorry!!))..Anyway, I think I like "Priscilla the Cambodian" in Sightseeing more,partly bec the narrator is a child and he is clearly not part of the mainstream Thais, i mean he is almost an outsider, criticising the cruelty of the adults esp the way they try to make the Cambodian refugees scapegoats and justify their maltreatment of the others).
Joy - sure you can use the transcription. I put up a pdf version as well
http://www.robinlea.com/pub/InTheNineties.pdf
Please correct it if you do. I know that I haven't used sensible transliterations for the names of the Bangkok intersections, for instance, and I'm sure there are many other mistakes I don't see. The paragraphs and punctuation are as surely not what Rattawut had in mind.
The narrator seems to me to be a young "Bangkok everyman" of the nineties, just bouyed along by the onrushing tide until the collapse of his family and the Thai economy. Then comes reflection.
The only piece I've found of Sightseeing is the one I put up. It's not very satisfying at all. If you have a link to others... please share.
I went to Chongmowpanda but nobody was home... I love to discuss Rattawut and others, but I feel as though I am imposing on Hobby's hospitality :)
Hobby
I'm saving my eyes for the Thai cable leaks...
I haven't looked myself. I'm skeptical of Assange. I think he's CIA himself, or has dual 'loyalties'. These 'leaks' represent a gigantic filtering operation... he had 2 million and released 200,000?
But it's all interesting. So far I've only heard of connections to Bout vis a vis Thailand.
I'd be interested in hearing about connections between the Thai/US Torture operations, the so-called 'Extraordinary renditions'. PPT had a link to a Time article mentioning same...
http://www.robinlea.com/pub/IsTheThaiMilitaryTorturingDetainees.html
Heard anything there?
I'm not quite as skeptical about JA/Wikileaks as you, and if anything think they have tried to be too 'responsible' in their whistleblowing (the delayed release of the stuff has left them a bit vulnerable to the sort of hassling they are now facing)
Yeah... it's their 'responsibility' that raises my suspicions. But what they have dumped would not be before us if they had not done so... but what have they not dumped?
And what is the long term effect of these massive dumps...
Julian Assange: Wanted by the Empire, Dead or Alive
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn12032010.html
' Will this vivid record of imperial outreach in the early 21st century soon be forgotten? Not if some competent writer offers a readable and politically vivacious redaction. But a warning: in November 1979 Iranian students seized an entire archive of the State Department, the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) at the American embassy in Tehran. Many papers that were shredded were laboriously reassembled.
' These secrets concerned far more than Iran. The Tehran embassy, which served as a regional base for the CIA, held records involving secret operations in many countries, notably Israel, the Soviet Union, Turkey, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan.
' Beginning in 1982, the Iranians published some 60 volumes of these CIA reports and other US government documents from the Tehran archive, collectively entitled Documents From the US Espionage Den. As Edward Jay Epstein, a historian of US intelligence agencies, wrote years ago, "Without a doubt, these captured records represent the most extensive loss of secret data that any superpower has suffered since the end of the Second World War."
' In fact the Tehran archive truly was a devastating blow to US national security. It contained vivid portraits of intelligence operations and techniques, the complicity of US journalists with US government agencies, the intricacies of oil diplomacy. The volumes are in some university libraries here. Are they read? By a handful of specialists. The inconvenient truths were swiftly buried – and perhaps the WikiLeaks files will soon be fade from memory too, joining the inspiring historical archive of intelligence coups of the left. '
Yes, most of us will still just carry on gossiping/shopping/chasing etc, with or without Wikileaks (or Prachatai), and the rulers will rule.
Might have to split my next donation between the Julian Assange defence fund and the Chiranut defence fund.
Julian Assange has more than $1,000,000 in the bank! Look to Prachatai, not the celebrity leakers.
Anticipating a request for a source of the figure quoted...
http://cryptome.org/0001/wikileaks-dump.htm
http://cryptome.org/0002/wikileaks-rich.htm
Certainly the information published by wikileaks is good to have.
But why is wikileaks trying to create a new business as middleman between the sources of the leaks and the consumers?
Julian Assange is not the hero of this story.
Bradley Manning and the others who produced the information that the jet-setting Julian is acting as gatekeeper of are the heros.
Bradley Manning is presently in the hands of the US military, his civil rights much reduced as a consequence, and at the mercy of a military 'justice' system like Thailand's as well.
http://cryptome.org/0003/wikileaks-renege.htm
' Immediately following Bradley's arrest in late June 2010, the whistle-blower website Wikileaks publicly solicited donations specifically for Bradley's legal defense expenses. In July 2010, Wikileaks pledged to contribute a "substantial amount" towards Bradley's legal defense costs. Since Bradley's selection of David Coombs as his civilian defense attorney in August 2010, the Bradley Manning Support Network has unsuccessfully attempted to facilitate the pledged Wikileaks contribution.
' "We understand the difficult situation Wikileaks currently faces as the world's governments conspire to extinguish the whistle-blower website," explained Jeff Paterson, Bradley Manning Support Network steering committee member and project director of Courage to Resist http://couragetoresist.org/
"However, in order to meet Bradley Manning's legal defense needs, we're forced to clarify that Wikileaks has not yet made a contribution towards this effort. We certainly welcome any contribution from Wikileaks, but we need to inform our supporters that it may not be forthcoming and that their continued contributions and support are crucial."
' Donations towards Bradley's defense can be made at http://bradleymanning.org/
-- to either the Support Network for both public education efforts and legal defense, or directly to Bradley's legal trust account. '
Julian has used them and discarded them. He has explicitly collected money for their defense... and kept it instead.
If I had an extra buck I'd donate it to Bradley Manning's defense, not Julian Assange's.
Agree Bradley Manning is a hero and very brave.
(btw, I had to change the links to get your post to appear - must be a blogger/blogspot issue)
It may be google. It may the case that they disallow links from people who don't use a google account ID. I've noted the same behavior from disqus if you don't post using a facebook/twitter/disqus ID at site taken over by disqus.
They don't want to forego the opportunity to link the people posting in a thread to each other. Imagine the dossiers they're building, not just on individuals but on groups as well.
Wordpress is better looking :) and not (yet) owned by google. Google hosts all its servers on its own, proprietary software as well. Google is rapidly becoming public enemy number one, in my book at least. They are a wonderful outfit, technically, but they made a faustian deal with the devil when they went public. We the people, google's 'customers', are its product. Soylent Green.
WikiRebels
Wikileaks Cables Amok
Pay Wikileaks to Play
Speaking of Thailand, I was happy to see the leaks from the American ambassador published.
They were not any different, really, than most people might imagine conversations between the principles involved might have been... but to have them just dropped on the table makes glaringly and unavoidably obvious just exactly how bankrupt and meaningless the smoke and gongs emanating from the Bangkok "elite" all these years has always been.
No putting the genie back in the bottle now.
There's an initiative called openleaks in the offing... nothing up but an under construction site at this point... but it holds the promise of a methodical implementation of a constant, viable source of the sort of material that, kept bottled up, allows the "magicians" to baffle us all with bullshit so effectively.
http://www.counterpunch.org/flanders12172010.html
' Julian Assange of WikiLeaks is out on bail—apparently headed for the 10-bedroom home of British former army officer Vaughan Smith, described by the Guardian as a rightwing libertarian. Assange's lawyer joked that it would not be so much "house arrest as manor arrest" while he fights extradition to Sweden on sexual assault charges.
' There's no manor for Bradey Manning. As Glenn Greenwald noted yesterday, the alleged leaker of much of the WikiLeaks information, including the "Collateral Murder" video showing soldiers shooting Iraqi civilians—has been sitting in solitary confinement for seven months under torture conditions. Denied even sheets and a pillow for his bed, Manning is under constant surveillance to prevent him even for exercising for 23 out of 24 hours of every day.And nw he's under a regimen of authority-administered anti-depressant drugs. '
Both Bradley Manning & Julian Assange are heroes for what they are trying to do for truth & transparency, but I'm struggling to find any redeeming qualities in the establishment figures that they have exposed (or in Adrian Lamo, the apparent snitch)
Merry Christmas to Hobby and JFL!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvWgVPAh1k&feature=related
Thank's Joy - Santa missed my place this year, but I hope you had better luck:)
Compliments of the season to you, JFL, and anyone else who happens to stumble upon this little site:)
'Compliments of the season'... I'd never heard that particular greeting 'til I heard it from you Hobby, and now from Miss Monica Yusuf...
'
Subject:Compliments of the season
Date: 12/27/2010 03:13:57 PM
From: miss monica yusuf
To: undisclosed-recipients: ;
' ...I will introduce myself, I am miss monica yusuf (an orphan), i lost my mum in 2007. And my late father was a well recognised cocoa merchant in our country before he died in 2009, as a result of food poisoning.
' Before his death , he told me that he made sure that i have every security i will need in life. he told me that he deposited a huge sum of money for me in a bank in our country cote d'ivoire... '
Are you a fellow resident of the cote d'ivoire, Hobby? Or is 'compliments of the season' just a greeting I hadn't heard before, leading the sheltered life as an undisclosed recipient that I do :)
Thanks Hobby. And thanks Joy.
Seems Miss Yusuf and I belong in the Victorian era :)
Ah, yes... It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness... it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair... in short, it was so far like the present day...
Just drop by to say hi to you, Hobby. Wish you the best (I khow as you know it's only a wishful thinking)for 2011. And also my best wish for you, Joy. It's always my joy reading your comments.
Sorry for being quite 'personal'.
Hi Doctor J:-)
Wish u a very happy new year too:-)
also , a very happy 2011 to JFL.
Sorry JFL but I've tried getting your comment to appear but no luck - JFL said:
Hi Joy, and Hobby, and doctor J... I have decided to dam(n) the torrent of comments that I have flooded prachatai with over the past... good long while... and to give you and everyone else a chance to get a word in edgewise, amongst the copious spam attacks.
I have though, junky that I am, set up a wordpress of my own to service my jones, in case any of you are interested. I'd be honored and delighted to carry on any conversation there you might see fit to engage, although you certainly needn't feel you need do so.
(See my Blogroll for the link)
That's great JFL, but I think you should still comment at Prachatai, if only to keep the spam bots at bay.
Best wishes to you all for the new year.
Google's ngram on 'compliments of the season'
.....but can we trust Google? :)
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2011/01/12/national/An-open-letter-to-the-red-shirts-30146164.html
Have a look at this one. I quite like it!!
Thanks for that Joy - I agree wholehearedly, and hope such views are widely disseminated (in Thai too)
"There is no space for idolatry in any truly democratic society"
"There is no space for idolatry in any truly democratic society"
Sorry this comment may not sound very relevant to yr thread but
in my opinion, very few people are worth admiring and these people will not like it when people admire them, idealize, make an idol them.
Group/herd mentality sometimes makes people forget their principle-- because they want to be admired, they dare not go against what the majority in their grp want to do. But, yes number means power..the more people join u, the more chances u have in winning yr cause, but personally I detest herd mentality, or to be more correct, I personally don;'t trust people in general (even to the point of dislike)especially when they form a grp and trying to present to the world that they are always right.
sorry that I sound like a misanthrope here. to be honest, i'm quite sick of people as groups (political groups/movements included)(although it's not always bad dealing with idividuals).
I know how you feel (but I try to remember that all tribes are made up of individuals, so rather than condemn, or withdraw, it is probably best to engage - hard as it may seem:)
I disagree.
BTW,i'm willing to help or contribute if i can (that is--if my contribution (signature, vote or practical stuff etc.) is needed, but I can't think of myself as fitting in or being part of any groups.
You (and I) are already part of at least one group - humanity/the human race (like it, or not:)
How abt this? 5555:-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VM0Z75KEd_o
Joy: Please see my latest blog for my response :) :(
I'm sure you've seen Tyrell Haberkorn at prachatai.com
Why Thailand Needs a Judge Like Baltasar Garzón
I linked from there to here. It would be great if an already commidified person would liberate Tyrell's material from ANU.
Tyrell's papers behind ANU's Facebook firewall
Not sure what you mean, but most of the links seem to work for me (both this link and the links in the Prachatai article)
Thanks for mentioning my blog on Prachatai (although I don't take any credit for finding the article - it was referred to me by a twitter friend)
btw, Google/Blogger must have taken you off their watch list as this is the first time in a long time one of you comments (with links) has appeared on my blog without me having to manually intervene - there is hope after all:)
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