Neither side is innocent, each thinks it’s defending against attacks by the other, but bottom line is one side wants democracy and the other side wants to limit it (or sometimes ‘allow’ it, but only to the extent it doesn’t upset their applecart).
There can be no doubt now that the supposedly more ‘educated’ are actually just as brainwashed as the ‘kwai’, and if not brainwashed then they are ‘jai dum’, which IMO is much worse.
So the solution is still what it has always been - just trust the population as a whole, and allow democracy, without the interference!
There can be no justification for (another) crackdown when there is a clear and simple solution.
Forget about Thaksin – he’s history – it’s much bigger than him now, and the people won't allow his style of democracy any more than they will allow the old 'thai style democracy'.
Not one more drop of blood need be shed, and if it is, then the blame will clearly be with those who refuse to let the people have an immediate say on what they think of all the events that have happened since the 2006 military coup.(That say needs to be at the ballot box - an election is the only poll that counts!)
Today, Abhisit needs to announce an immediate house dissolution, and an immediate cessation of the state of emergency.
Protesters of all sides must then go home, and the ballot box is the place for their voice to be heard.
In the lead up to the elections, all the leaders should promote tolerance of opposing views, and present their case against those views in a civil manner. They should also ask their supporters to respect fully the electoral decision of the country as a whole, and not seek to interfere with or obstruct the new government.
As for what to do with all the pending cases & investigations, we all know that there will not be equal justice for all the wrongdoers, so (sadly) the only way to get fair closure is to draw a line in the sand AS OF TODAY - amnesty for all, including any banned politicians no matter what colour, for the events up to today, however after today each and every illegal act to be prosecuted fairly, without discrimination or favor - it's the only way the country can move forward.
Please do it, Abhisit - for the sake of your country and for your own redemption.
.
112 comments:
and, please military, climb back into your box and allow Abhisit to do the right thing... call elections and abide by the result!
"In the lead up to the elections, all the leaders should promote tolerance of opposing views, and present their case against those views in a civil manner."
No matter how many "shoulds" you say, when Arisman and his crowd threatened elections commissioners lives if they don't comply with red demands, the whole notion of respect and civility, and hope for free and fair elections went out of the window.
Just in the past week two ministers were prevented from doing their jobs, one punched.
Let's not forget that there's an equally large group that is against unscheduled house dissolution and elections, and demands Abhisit stay and do his job until his term duly expires.
StanG: I'm about solutions to avoid civil war - would you prefer the people to fight it out on the streets, or at the ballot box? That's the choice now.
(btw, there is fault on all sides, so don't just try to pick Arisaman as the easy target - yellows still have not faced any punishment, whilst reds have constantly borne the brunt of the double standard - even your beloved Abhisit defended the Rohingya getting towed to sea, and by his riding on PAD fascist & military coattails, and subsequent charter amendment & election delaying tactics has just as much blood on his hands as Arisaman)
The only way forward is draw a line in the sand, start again with a new election, and all sides live with it.
Like I said - it's not rocket science!
DavidB: I agree.
It's been tense of late, from my distance. PPT had me wondering if they were "in the know"; thank goodness they were not.
Today the internet was down all day here in Chiangrai and the TOT spokesman told me that the fiber was down between Bangkok and Chiangmai. I asked if that was the truth or if the tahan had started killing the reds and if TOT had cut off communications to keep the news from spreading. He said no, it was the fiber cable. I have no idea. It's obviously back up now.
Nirmal Ghosh witnesses a possible sign of things to come :
Flashpoint Silom
I saw the precise moment when the riot started. At around 11pm, some of the pro-government demonstrators were running out into the intersection taunting the Reds, and then one finally let fly with a large stone. That of course was the signal for a barrage of stones and bottles from the pro-government mob.
Only about 20 or so were involved, but it was enough to create tremendous chaos. Glass shattered on the street and rocks cracked and bounced as they went for the Reds – who retaliated with rocks and slingshots of their own but held their line and did not come charging out.
The interesting part of the evening was that the police and soldiers did nothing to stop the pro-government crowd, which incidentally was also, like the Reds, in violation of the Emergency Decree which prohibits assembly of more than five people. Yet they were allowed to assemble and yell at the Reds in a gradual escalation all afternoon, which finally exploded at night with the police and soldiers simply looking on.
Someone tweeted me in the middle of all this, to say that "This is straight out of the 1976 playbook. Get goons to do the dirty work and wash your hands of it".
A people versus people bloodbath may be part of the playbook, forcing the army to wade in. But times are different now from 1976, and there is no telling what the consequences may be.
"On Tuesday" he [Supalak Ganjanakhundee] wrote, "an unknown group of people put up stickers on Silom Road saying that the Red-Shirt group wanted a new Thailand with Thaksin as president. A move like this suggests that the right wing and elitist forces are employing old tactics to label the opponents as anti-monarchists."
‘’On October 6, 1976, student activists in Thammasat University were massacred just because they were accused of being anti-monarchists.
"Calling the protesters terrorists and turning a normal political protest into a national security issue and a threat to the revered institution, is uncivilised and unfair. Besides, such tactics will only make the problem more complicated and difficult to resolve," concluded Supalak.
This does seem to be the new tack.
Your solution is the obvious one... and its been the obvious one for a month.
Everyone knows what the reasonable thing to do is.
The problem is the unreasonable people have the guns, seized power four years ago, and remain unwilling to give it up.
It's getting worse by the minute - Twitter is going nuts with all the reports tonight from Silom - how long can this madness go on?
A poll would ease Thai tension
' For the past year, political unrest in Thailand has been simmering, with undulating waves of street protests, anti-government demonstrations and a concerted campaign to topple the regime of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.
' In the past six weeks, the campaign has garnered momentum, with protesters clashing with authorities and police, bringing the streets of Bangkok to a standstill and causing the deaths of at least 25 people.
' The protesters are defying emergency rule and want former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who now lives in exile, to be allowed to return.
' Whatever the merits of the protesters' cause, or the legitimacy of the government, the campaign is having a detrimental effect on the Thai economy.
' The nation's tourism sector is being decimated by the protests, with visitors staying away from the beaches and beauty spots until the unrest subsides. Thailand's GDP will fall by two per cent because of the protests.
' Thailand's currency has also been taking a beating in recent months — when a recent protest was called off, the baht rose to its highest level in 18 months against the dollar.
' Only fresh elections with full participation from all parties will bring this debilitating saga to an end.'
We need many more such editorial stances by responsilbe press outside Thailand. There are no responsible MSM within Thailand.
JFL: The last sentence is the best part of that otherwise so-so editorial.
There are a few voices of reason in the Thai english MSM, especially The Nation's Pravit and BP has the other Vejjajiva - his opinion piece today is again very good.
You've given us a very well presented, persausive argument. Thanks for this
Nganadeeleg: No governments I know of would yield to intimidation or terror . . . whether threats come from outside or inside. However flawed you may believe that PM Abhisit came to power, Abhisit was chosen legitimately by Thailand's parliament in accordance with the Thai constitution.
Reasonable men listen to reason. The Reds leadership, comprised of Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut are not reasonable men . . . and their demands for immediate house dissolution then election without any thought of continuing or even more messier consequences later on, if there are no proper preparations, draw my suspicions of a much darker agenda.
Did you watch the TV footage last night about a shooting incident during the Apr-10th Songkran Red riots. The TV footage was very clear. A young Red protester carrying a Red flag changed direction towards the direction of the Red camp when a high-velocity bullet blew his brains out . . . the direction of blood from his blown head confirming that the shot came from the direction of the Red camp. Shot by mistake by his own comrade perhaps . . . or deliberate murder to pin later on the soldiers who knows?
But what is clear is that assassins in black were mixing freely with the Reds and shooting with assault rifles towards the unprepared soldiers that provoked the mayhem and bloodbath, of both Red protesters, soldiers and passers-by, during the April 10th riots.
To this day PM Abhisit had been very cautious and very patient, even as many businessmen and ordinary citizens getting more incensed at the flagrant lawlessness and disrespect towards their fellow Thais by the Reds.
A backlash is imminent. Only if the Reds leadership come to their senses . . . starting from Thaksin, to Chavalit . . . to Somchai to calm their followers and urge them to disperse now for Thailand's peace . . . will further needless bloodshed be avoided.
For any elections to take place Arisman and the rest of the red leadership must submit to their arrest warrants without pointing fingers at yellows, who, btw, surrendered themselves when the govt wanted to arrest them.
Then reds could ask to negotiate elections schedule with the government and other concerned parties, like the growing anti-red movement, negotiate in good faith, without trying to force their will on others.
Bombing the government and the opponents into submission is terrorism by any measure.
VichaiN: There always will be smoke & mirrors regarding third hands & invisible hands etc in Thai politics - unfortunately, thats the nature of the beast that's been created.
I see no point trying to pick isolated events to discredit one side & not the other - especially when a guy like Newin has never been made face the consequences of his actions last April.
So instead of getting bogged down in the fog of war, I am focussing on solutions.
What you say about Abhisit and legitimate governments is nonsense - you conveniently forget how he acted when opposition leader at the time the real genuinely elected government was facing protests (plenty of youtube clips of his statements then if you are interested:)
You also cannot deny that there is a stench about how Abhisit got to power, and that can only be removed by having an election.
Election is also the only way this mess can end - there is no other alternative, unless you favour the Burma/North Korea solution?
The longer that election is delayed, the more blood will be on his hands.
Vichai, what did you say on New Mandala to get yourself "unwelcome"?
I agree with your overall assessment of the editorial... the one and only point is the last line.
' Only fresh elections with full participation from all parties will bring this debilitating saga to an end.'
Clearly the Democrat/PAD regime is bent on projecting it's ridiculous "reds as terrorists" line and stonewalling a free and fair election. They are not democrats. Thai governments and the Thai military have historically and routinely used terror against their citizens.
Pressure for elections must come from outside of Thailand. Elections are not some extraordinary act... they are the foundation of democracy and they are meant to solve exactly the sort of problems of legitimacy we are facing today.
The red shirts ought to be asking the UN not for peace-keeping troops but for the peace-keeping solution :
Only fresh elections with full participation from all parties will bring this debilitating saga to an end.
If enough nations, even just the media in enough nations, simply call for elections that call will eventually be impossible even for the Democrat/PAD putsch to ignore. Elections are the obvious and easy alternative to the massacre the government is threatening.
Hobby - 'smoke and mirrors' nonsense Hobby!
I gave u that TV footage about the poor young Red protester shot thru his brain by a high-velocity rifle by another Red and you choose to hide behind the fog of your own romantic notions about a phrai uprising, no doubt!
Your solutions Hobby btw is one sure direct path to anarchy.
StanG,
Am not sure which particular Vichai N poster NM moral compasses Walker and Farrelly found particularly offensive . . . (all Vichai's posts are consistently offensive btw).
It could my response to Somsak Jeamteerasakul (#7 Royal reds, reds, and rebel reds thread) something to effect that "Until Somsak J mention in his post, I have never heard of Thida Thawornset either, which Somsak claims to be responsible for injecting the language of ‘Phrai/class struggle’ into the Red Shirts movement, and not Pansak." and then I went on with "Both the Thai and Aussie buffaloes swallowing whole this cockamamie 'phrai-amart class struggle' story without a burp, definitely hungry for more."
They are a worthless bunch these pompous New Mandala poseurs . . if they can't take an offensive joke or dish one themselves.
Farrelly and Walker definitely enjoy those absorbing posters by Enrico and Benny, serious men admiring their own substance. Hah!
But I sincerely enjoyed your well-informed posters StanG!
Vichai N
(Hobby if I too am unwelcome in your site, just shoo me away anytime!)
http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1271743073&grpid=&catid=02
this article by nidhi Aewsriwong is particularly good. i find his sarcasm (and humour) amusing.
VichaiN: After enduring many inconclusive videos & considering the possibility of them being 'doctored', I simply don't bother with then anymore - what's the point!
(I'm a nobody - if such video's really do offer any proof, I strongly suggest you put them into the hands of the appropriate authorities)
If the obvious, rational, logical & fair minded solution (an election to clear the air), leads to anarchy, then what hope is there?
(btw, red's have always said they would accept election results, so if you expect anarchy then it will be from the same old suspects - you know, those who say they are about stability, morality and such 'noble' things, but refuse to accept the right of their fellow 'lesser' citizens to have any say in what goes on in their country)
However, you may be right as I presume you know your fellow yellow shirts well!
You are welcome to post here and remember this blog started with your insightful comments about Thaksin's culpability in the drug war, but don't expect me to be agreeing with you and StanG when you are clearly not in favour of allowing all the thai people to have an equal say.
Do I scare you Hobby . . . because I sound 'Yellow'?
Imagine how these simple hard-working Bangkok people feel when the Reds invaded and starting screaming they'll tear the hearts out of every amart and castrate every soldier they can find . . . with M-79 grenade launchers and assault rifles providing soothing musical background?
And they demand house dissolution and elections NOW . . . or else!
Nobody likes bullies . . . a mob of bullies even more. And their ignorance or poverty do not give them free rein to terrorize, to kill or maim their fellow men, either.
Their leaders should know better.
The reds came to town peacefully, and have only been asking for house dissolution (so their democratic right can be restored, after having so shamefully/shamelessly been usurped by the military and judicial coups under cover provided by ....)
Yes, some yellows do scare me - at least the reverence shown by (some) reds to Thaksin is rational, unlike the reverence the better 'educated' yellows show in pursuing their 'higher' values.
Reds started off peacefully, that much I can agree on.
Then they used sheer force to break into Election Commission, threatened lives of the commissioners, broke into parliament and caused lawmakers flee, engaged the army in a firefight battle that claimed lives of five soldiers and left hundreds wounded, and, to top it off, lobbed grenades into the crowd, killing one and wounding scores of others, many of them not even part of anti-red protests, and then celebrated afterwards.
Hobby I have so far kept my comments to you, confined to Twitter. No matter how logical VichaiN and StanG are, you refuse to take off that red face mask.
As for Dan on AB, you appear to be equally blind about his commentary.
as are many other "politically correct" red supporters
The Thai political blogosphere has become a very undemocratic space recently. It seems that unless one is prepared to bow down to the likes of Dr. Weng (the old commie), Veera (the billionaire) and Jatuporn and Narrawat (who knows what they are, except opportunists), one is to be hounded from one side of the Realm, to the other.
Thank goodness there are some good writers, such as Jaded who might be very cynical and pessimistic, but the reasoning is backed up by sound argument. He's very hard to argue against.
Further, associating the name Thaksin with the "cause" is "haram".
You keep saying the game has moved on. Yes, it certainly has. However, you are still shouting out the same old mantra about dissolution.The game has also moved on from that, too.
And of course BP (Bangkok Pundit, not Post)is still as fair minded as ever. From there the playing field is quite limited.
This morning you tweeted about the Bangkok Post editorial and cartoon which would have been better said on the Red stage, to loud cheers from adoring middle aged, middle class Bangkok women with their grandchildren, than Twitter.
Vichai's last post on this blog about how some (a lot) in Bangkok feel when they are being intimidated like this is very relevant.
No matter who threw what at whom, it is time to put away childish things.
There are valid reasons - as well as cynically political ones, for both holding an election, and not holding an election, as soon as possible.
But, to think an election under the terms as demanded by the reds will help improve things in Thailand, is "Hollywood Dreaming".
How can you believe the reds when they say, they will accept the verdict of the people?
If, as is possible, an election brings about the status quo and the numbers(sides) give the parties of the present government, the keys to the kingdom again? Can you see Jatuporn & co sitting idly by and saying "the people have spoken, they don't want us" ??
Okay the PAD and the so called (enemy) the Amart/Army/Govt band of "conspirators" might also do the same, if they lose.
Where does that leave us?
I would use the old Laurel & Hardy line, "another fine mess"!
Irrespective of a "forced" election, but whenever an election is called, do you think all sides will be freely allowed to canvas anywhere in the country?
Will the Chiang Mai Reds, or Kwanchai's Udon group, allow a Dem (if they haven't been banned by an intimidated EC), or god forbid, a PAD candidate to bid for votes in their fiefdoms ?
Simlarly, will Red candidates be able to openly campaign in some southern electorates ?
I doubt it, under the present conditions.
All sides need to be locked in a room for quite some time and only come out when a deal, which is fair and open to all Thai people no matter what colour or group of elite they come from has been agreed to by ALL Thais, who will adhere to the Rue of the Game (dream on).
That is perhaps as much a fairy tale, as you believing an election will solve anything.
Now back to Twitter...
Just as i posted my comments this Tweet from Tulsi came in :
"Unconfirmed reports heard by our reporters say Veera and Korbsak are negotiating on a possible six-month timeframe."
Is this a sign of a cessation for now?
I agree Jaded is good - no argument from me on that point.
Overall this whole mess comes down to one basic question:
Should each person have an equal vote?
Yes or No?
(lets hear it GeeGee, StanG, VichaiN, BkkDan & Co)
I vote YES, and I have not seen anything from the reds that disgrees with that basic principle.
Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for the yellow's, nor their latest reincarnation the multi colours, nor the 'Democrats',the military, The Nation & Bangkok Post (with a few notable exceptions like Pravit & Suranand)
Lets hear it: Yay or Nay?
I can't speak for the others, who you called out - that would not be democratic, but of course I agree in the principle and application of "one person, one vote".
As the PAD and its political party have yet to announce their platform, I can't talk for them either.
As for the others, I'm sure there are plenty in all who would want to see one person, one vote - maybe even more than those who would try to prevent such a thing.
But, Hobby that's not the point.
I think I spelt it out clearly, that I believe until all sides agree to facilitate one person, one vote, and agree (before and after the vote) to accept the outcome, holding an election is not going to solve very much - if anything at all.
I will also add to my previous comment, by saying: we are now at a stage where the only way to know if an election will solve anything, is to hold one within a time frame agreed to by all Thais.
Sometimes to face the unknown, is better than holding on to things as they are.
This might brig about even more chaos than at present, but that's the chance that might now, be the only way out.
I vote yes as well.
I've had enough of the anti-reds dissembling and writhing to present their anti-democratic case as being the pinnacle of democracy
Off with their heads I say...
Hobby you must getting very teary red in your eyes . . . if suddenly you start to believe StanG or Vichai N reject the Reds constitutional right to vote.
I do not even reject their privilege to have themselves killed for the privilege to sell their votes; that is a Thai prai's privilege so I am repeatedly told by New Mandala . . . so long that they do not draw me in any crossfire.
I'm going to pick Vichai N on a point here.
if there is one thing that I find more repulsive about the Thai than just about anything, is the remorseless ambition to one-up-manship and some juvenile sense of psychological and financial superiority. It is puerile and offensive to any grown-up, but is all-pervasive among the privileged classes in Thailand. It marks both the effective propaganda of the same privileged classes, and demonstrative of the inability of Thais to develop past the emotional maturity we take for granted from 12 year old kids in the west.
I see the same condescension quite frequently in Vichai N's posts, and it really is offensive. My advice for Vichai N is the same as many Thais routinely offer to foreigners when they dare to point out the numerous shortcomings that many Thais are prone to. It is this.
If you don't like it Vichai N, then leave. And close the door behind you so we can all get on and have a laugh at your miserable expense.
Feel free to take StanG with you...
Anonymous - I must really apologize . . . because I was stupidly lost once I got to your " . . .remorseless ambition to one-up-manship" and my head was really spinning by the time I got to " . . .and demonstrative of the inability of Thais to develop past the emotional maturity we take for granted from 12 year old kids in the west."
I have the mentality of an 11-year old brat . . . and so those offended old men of New Mandala repeatedly keep on remind me.
(btw . . . until Hobby specifically shoos away this unwelcome 11-year old brat . . .
I'll continue on merrily with my offensive ways)
VichaiN, this attacker who goes forth "anonymously", sounds very much like Antipadhist - except his grasp of the English language would indicate otherwise...
So this is the situation so far:
Anonymous: YES
GeGee: Yes/Maybe, but someone won't accept that anyway
(doesn't that give you a clue who you should really be addressing your criticisms at?)
Vichai: Yes, of course they can vote.
(but we reserve the right to take away that vote by whatever means we can including military coup, 'directed' judicial actions, third hands, whatever)
StanG: no response yet - maybe he's waiting to see what's the minimum Abhisit/Prayuth (and those behind them:) will accept before they decide they have enough preserver's in place to finally allow an election?
I think you do me a diservice indicating I am fence sitting.
I definitely believe in : ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE.
I further believe, the conditions I suggested would allow that.
Kao jai mai ??
p.s. which "anonymous" are you talking about??
GeGee: You qualified your 'Yes', with "until all sides agree to facilitate one person, one vote, and agree (before and after the vote) to accept the outcome, holding an election is not going to solve very much - if anything at all"
Red's are not the one's who are the problem - it's them who have had their votes stolen!
(and Abhisit is a beneficiary of that theft, and he can only gain legitimacy by going to the people ASAP - and that's definitely not in 9, 6 or even 5 months time!))
"Red's are not the one's who are the problem"...
There you go again putting on your red shades.
I don't need to tell you, under the rules of the constitution in this country, what happened was perfectly legal.
There is of course an argument that in the "spirit" of democracy this was not right and I would agree to some extent.
But Churchill switched sides a couple of times in between elections. In Oz Billy Hughes did it without going to the people. Right now Tasmania has a minority government which ahs been accepted.
Canada currently operates with a minority government
As long as the Thai constitution is based on the principles of a constitutional monarchy as operates in the UK (where this is NO written constitution, but precedents)what happened - not how how it happened is leagl and votes were not stolen.
That is propaganda put out on PTV and the Red stages.
If they were prepared to argue the point based on accepting the rule of law, rather than using the KISS principle to sell their message, this issue would be a non-starter.
Let me turn the tables and ask you, if when an election is held - which it will be - and the reds could only form a government by persuading , say the BJT and a few Democrats to join them, wouldn't this be the famous "double standards" you go on about?
Is it any more "right" than what happened in 2008 ?
PLease answer that - without your red specs on.
@ Vichai N:
"Anonymous - I must really apologize . . .
Yes, I think so too. But not just to me, I am sure others are bored with your drivel as well but are probably too polite to tell you. Not me.
"...because I was stupidly lost once I got to your " . . .remorseless ambition to one-up-manship"
I believe you.
"...and my head was really spinning by the time I got to " . . .and demonstrative of the inability of Thais to develop past the emotional maturity we take for granted from 12 year old kids in the west."
Yes, I imamgine you are not accustomed to having your ass kicked. Most Thais aren't (I assume you are Thai), though having had your asses kicked so many times by the Burmese and more recently by the Cambodians, you ought to be used to it by now.
"I have the mentality of an 11-year old brat . . . and so those offended old men of New Mandala repeatedly keep on remind me."
You seem to wear the mentality of an 11-year-old brat as some kind of badge of honour. You should be ashamed for not having the ambition to improve yourself.
"(btw . . . until Hobby specifically shoos away this unwelcome 11-year old brat . . .
I'll continue on merrily with my offensive ways)"
Yes, I see you have the Thai IQ and the THai EI, If you arenlt a Thai I suggest you apply for citizenship right away.
On the other hand, you could stop being a pain in the ass and get a life. Better yet, get a clue and stop braying endlessly in defence of the indefensible. The amart in Thailand are on their way out to perhaps you should consider a substitute focus of your hero-worship
@GeeGee:
No, I am not anti-PADhist but you would be much better listening to what he says than listening to what the reactionary pro-government drones meander on about.
The best thing to do with drones is to swat them. Some of the brighter ones stay swatted. Eventually
GeGee: That's where you read me wrongly - I don't particularly care who wins the election - I just think your are on a very slippery slope choosing to accept military coups & obviously biased (and directed) judicial intervention and denying that those events have stolen the majority's votes.
(your question is thus answered!)
Look, surely you are not so naive as to think that Abhisit wouldn't jump quickly to an election IF he thought he could win it - he's a politician isn't he?
(and his minders would let him have that election if they too thought he could win it)
Your examples of UK & Australia are laughable - when was the last time they had a military coup?
(and does the military own any TV stations in those countries?)
Anonymous, I think yu would do better to put some substance to the discussion here rather than carry on like an "elite" yourself.
I would also hope you are Thai?
If not i would consider the comments you directed at VichaiN (assuming he is Thai as his name indicates) as being quite racist and out of order.
They are certainly out of order in relation to this blog.
nobody has any idea from your comments 1. who you are and 2.if you have any knowledge of the topic 3. if you have any comments regarding how Thai people can deal with this mess.
if you can't and if you continue with your slurs, I think you are full of crap yourself.
Despite his thai sounding names, I would be very surprised if VichaiN/Colonel Jeru is Thai
(that's just my opinion and I'm happy to be corrected though:)
Hey hang on Hobby. You are putting words in my mouth now.
I think the coup contributed to where we are now.
But, putting a context into this.
Where would the country be now if Thaksin had been allowed to go on doing what he was doing to the - let's call them - instruments of good governance?
Okay you say, that doesn't justify the coup and to some extent, I agree with you.
I also see, many results of the coup, just led the country back into the hands of control, as they were before.
Even now, there are remnants of that time - no argument.
That we have people like Newin and Barnharn on one side of the political spectrum and Chavalit,Chalerm and co on the other, is a crime.
As for the "amart elite", most of them would be best put out to pasture, with the other horses.
I think the interim government was disasterous.
As for saying, you don't care who wins the election, that's a copout.
Whilst the result is for the Thai people not us, this is not a schoolboy exercise, this is real life and the whole world has to live with the consequences.
Anonymous - Now I am beginning to really like you. No fancy ballet footwork . . . just a good old-fashioned bar brawl . . . the ones my ass always get kicked at. Those Burmese ones could really fight . . and a few short Cambodians could too . . . but are you not enough to handle 11-year old brat Vichai N you have to drag the Burmese and the Cambodians too?
The only Q I am personally proud of is my extraordinary ability to type . . . but hey thanks for the compliments too bad I could not reciprocate.
But I am disappointed that suddenly you, and those wise old men at New Mandala, would so easily be pricked to anger (anger is never righteous mind you) because I had not behaved according to yours, not mine, code of conduct. And you have taken upon yourself to demand that I henceforth desist and repent for my unacceptable disorderly demeanor when among gentlemen.
I take THAT back! I am NOT disappointed. I am actually soothed with some unexplainable glee that perhaps you'd get through your offended Anonymous heart there are millions of hardworking Thais in Bangkok not merely offended, but trespassed upon, threatened and terrified by the proper polite manners of Red leaders Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut.
(Anonymous - if you only wish to engage with people who agree with you, try Facebook!)
btw Vichai N is Thai (although I grew up abroad and carry on with very obviously uncouth unThai manners).
Should I wai?
GeGee: It's not a cop out.
It's understanding how democracy is supposed to work - sometimes I might not like who my fellow countrymen elect, but I accept it.
It's a simple concept, and should be easy for you to understand.
(those who dont accept the concept are the real cause of this mess - and their colour is not red!)
Thanks for the information Vichai - presumably the Colonel has the same heritage :)
I find the wai quite charming - I'm one of those farang who especially likes to do it when its not required.
@GeeGee"
"Anonymous, I think yu would do better to put some substance to the discussion here rather than carry on like an "elite" yourself."
What substance would you like GeeGee?
Entertaining how you feel that I am right in my estimation of the 'elites' though.
"I would also hope you are Thai?
If not i would consider the comments you directed at VichaiN (assuming he is Thai as his name indicates) as being quite racist and out of order."
Interesting comment this one. I am racist if I say these things and am not a Thai, but if I am a Thai and I say them, I am somehow not racist? Did I get that right? I am afraid your perspective is somewhat awry. better get that straightened out before you brawl with brawlers son.
"They are certainly out of order in relation to this blog."
I imagine Hobby will tell me if and when that happens, however he hasn't yet done so. In any event, what in particular is out of context here? The placing of Thai adults on the Piaget scale (dismal), the established national IQ level (dismal), the propensity of Thais for status-consciousness (would you like a reference on this from a Thai psychologist? The propensity of Thais to be lazy and focus on appearance? (Another Thai psychologist).
The deeper we go in this, the worse will be the kicking you get because everything I say can be backed up by hard facts, not ill-formed and poorly founded opinions opinions. It's up to you but I suggest it is dignified silence time.
"nobody has any idea from your comments 1. who you are and 2.if you have any knowledge of the topic 3. if you have any comments regarding how Thai people can deal with this mess."
1. Correct, and that is the way it will stay. If I have to tell you the reasons then you are more obtuse than I thought.
2. I do. I probably have more than most and my qualifications to speak about matters of psychology and behaviour are certainly more than most.
3. I do, and I have made them. What is required, and what will ultimately result, is a huge meltdown. Ask me nicely and I will tell you why.
"if you can't and if you continue with your slurs, I think you are full of crap yourself."
You are entitled to think what you wish, or to be more accurate you are entitled to think whatever makes you feel good in the face of opinion which challenges your own and makes you feel threatened. Your perception is your reality and should be happy with it, no matter how ill-informed other people think you might be.
@Vichai N:
"I take THAT back! I am NOT disappointed. I am actually soothed with some unexplainable glee"
I can explain the glee for you. It is the perverse satisfaction someone whom everyone else looks down on gets from being looked down on and pretending they enjoy it because it makes them feel different or powerful or something.
One name for it is contrarianism, but imho the better term is inadequacy.
"that perhaps you'd get through your offended Anonymous heart there are millions of hardworking Thais in Bangkok not merely offended, but trespassed upon, threatened and terrified by the proper polite manners of Red leaders Veera, Jatuporn and Nattawut."
A sweepig generalisation, I srously doubt you know more than a hundred or so and yet you want to generate some legitimacy for your position so you extend it to the 64 million other Thais that you don;t know, on the basis that larger numbers somehow means greater credibility, which is entirely and transparently fallacious.
On the other hand, if you have the names of 100,000 such people I will reconsider my assessment of your behaviour.
You might like to consider that among the 50 or so newspaers I have read which have ommented on the Thai situation, only thr Bangkok Post and the dreadful Nation rag agree with your analysis, and I am therefore sorely tempted to think you are merely parrotting what the very uneducated Thai journalists at those awful tabloids have written.
Think for yourself man! Strike a blow for personal integrity! Get a thought that you've worked out yourself. Many of your elitist friends will be jealous as hell.
I don't understand the relevance of one man one vote question. Reds are pissed at how MPs voted for Abhisit as the PM, not at how ordinary citizens votes turned out.
One man one vote principle has never been applied to votes in parliament where deals are made between the leadership and the rest of the MPs have to follow party line.
Speaking of one man one vote, technically it doesn't even exist - people vote for two or three candidates, thanks to the multiseat system.
Furthermore, 37% of people voted for PPP in constituency ballots and 39% in party list ballots, yet PPP got some 44% of MPs in parliament, which means they are overrepresented but no one complains about that, certainly not the reds themselves.
"It's understanding how democracy is supposed to work - sometimes I might not like who my fellow countrymen elect, but I accept it."
I presume you are old enough to have voted in Oz in 1975?
I know I was gutted at the "coup" - you say we never had one - you're wrong.
But with hindsight, I can now see that if Australia had gone on as it was - and this was for reasons much milder than Thailand is experiencing - it would have been a disaster for the country. I don't need to bore you with the issues.
I have similar feelings about the 2006 coup in Thailand.
It is hard to justify in pure legal/altrulistic terms, but it happened and you can't change the past.
In Australia restarting the clock eventually paved the way to a better way. Restarting the clock in Thailand hasn't, that's obvious.
Starting it again with people like Weng, Jatuporn, Veera, Nattuwat won't solve anything.
There are some "banned" politicians such as Chaturon, Suranan and perhaps others like Somkid on the second row who could do it, but they all seem to be gutless.
That's something you can't say about Thaksin that's for sure.
The four horsemen on the red stage also show leadership traits coupled with strength. But, leading a country is very different to leading a "mob" - to use the Thai term.
Thaksin is a CEO, but unfortunatley, can't leave his hands out of the till. If he could, those I mentioned would make good general managers".
I quite liked his "CEO/Biz" approach to running a country.
Unfortunately he got so carried away with his own importance and still is, if you believe the on (red)stage rhetoric, about him no longer being "the reason", you're still in dreamtime.
There should be other issues: there are, but they are being exploited.
This is boring!
You can go back and forth all you want about the numbers, but like it or not, the way Abhisit got to power has a stink about it that most of the world can now smell.
The obvious way to clear the air is an election - Red's would always have taken dissolution then election within 3 months - What is Abhisit so afraid of?
Even worse, StanG thinks he has the numbers - that's really mind boggling! - so Abhisit and his minders would prefer to save face than save lives?
btw, Thaksin did the same in his drug war, but at least in that carnage the drugs got cleaned up for a while - you really think getting the Queens guard man into the military commanders position, and a few budget goodies is really worth all this destruction of lives and livelihoods?
You are entitled to think what you wish. Or, to be more accurate, you are entitled to think whatever makes you feel good in the face of opinion which challenges your own and makes you feel threatened."
Anonymous, how can anyone feel threatened by someone like you, who knows everything and has the world completely summed up ?
All us mere mortals can do, is genuflect- or in a true Thai way, we should wai- to your brilliance.
As for your qualifications what credibility does that give you ?
I guess I should be grateful, that someone as brilliant as you, would deem my comments worthy of a response.
To you sir (I am resuming you are male?), I could say a "pox on your houses", but in the way of a Thai, I will instead bow down to a superior being.
Why?
Because you told me you are great.
@StanG:
"I don't understand the relevance of one man one vote question. Reds are pissed at how MPs voted for Abhisit as the PM, not at how ordinary citizens votes turned out."
I don't know why you keep peddling this fiction Stan, you know perfectly well it has nothing to do with 1 man 1 vote. Similarly it has nothing at all to do with Thaksin, except in a tangential way. You know perfectly well, this is about the way the elites have felt free to negate the 1-man 1-vote that has spoken eloquently by the majority vote of the people on 4 separate occasions, and been undermined on all of them.
What this is about is the unwillingness of the amart to accept a vote they personally don't agree with. Since the amart is estimated to be 20 families in Thailand, it must be evident that 20 families are simply deciding that what the majority wants is unimportant and can be laid waste at will.
That's what this is about, so please, cast of the delusional propaganda of your habitual position. Take a fresh look. Abhisit is not a legitimate PM because he became PM courtesy of the turncoat brigand Newin Chidchob, whose MP's were cajoled by Anupong issuing bribes and threats for them to decamp and support Prem and the Palace's candidate, and the opportunity provided by a terminally corrupt judiciary under the thrall of Prem and the Palace.
Simple as that really, all the rest is just smoke, propaganda and bullshit.
I must apologize to you only Hobby and no one else. I appreciate your taking up the Red cause and your arguments, drawn from history lessons, are obviously difficult to refute.
It is not my habit to ingratiate myself into someone's good standing just to win arguments. I want a frank exchange . . . heated . . . from the heart . . . the emotional arguments along with the rational the better. In that manner I believe could all these painful arguments be fleshed out fangs and all:
(Some that deeply disturb me to no end):
(a) is a monarchy still relevant to an aspiring democracy with a widening disparity of income and wealth distribution? (don't very easily dismiss why the Yellows and millions of Thais need a King);
(b) given the wealth/income disparity mentioned and rampant vote buying culture how is a constitutionally abiding citizen ever to gain trust or faith that so flawed a democracy could deliver social and economic well-being of his children and grandchildren? (c) accepting the argument that those Reds (yes those ignorant gullible and easily corrupted village poor) are a majority capable of electing deeply flawed leaders of say a Mugabe-mold (not that farfetch considering the Jatuporn-Mugabe striking resemblance) follows the logic of some constitutional safeguard of sort, I don't know what, NOW (the so called Abhisit's political road map) again for my children's sake.
It is easy for foreigners who had passed through the painful process to aver THEIR DEMOCRACY works, because they had succeeded. Millions of Thais, though they won't admit it, do not harbor the illusion that a Zimbabwe-like failure is not that remote.
Hobby this is not boring. It has unearthed someone tonight, in the form of "anonymous".
A person of such superior intellect, that we can only know who he is, if we are nice enough to him.
This is like the Wizard in Oz.
We all know what he turned out to be - don' we?
And we also now know that VichaiN says he is Thai.
I think that is important, because it does show just how racist our friend (well he's not mine, obviously) "anonymous" is.
Calling out Vichai like that, is racist.
It's not what he said, it's how he said it.
Surely a person of such brilliance and understanding of "psychology" as "anonymous" claims knowledge of, would know that?
So thanks for the ride.
And, I'm happy anyway, because my football team won!!
Which is actually like a lot of my inlaws would feel, if the red shirts won. Go figure !!
@GeeGee:
Ah the subtle flavour of irony used to create the impression that your words are in jest though they be sensible.
The learning process starts when you work out who you are in a position to learn from and who should learn from you. To this extent you have just made a useful start.
Go and sin no more.
I don't understand the relevance of one man one vote question. Reds are pissed at how MPs voted for Abhisit as the PM, not at how ordinary citizens votes turned out.
One man one vote principle has never been applied to votes in parliament where deals are made between the leadership and the rest of the MPs have to follow party line.
Speaking of one man one vote, technically it doesn't even exist - people vote for two or three candidates, thanks to the multiseat system.
Furthermore, 37% of people voted for PPP in constituency ballots and 39% in party list ballots, yet PPP got some 44% of MPs in parliament, which means they are overrepresented but no one complains about that, certainly not the reds themselves.
I will conclude my comments this evening, by asking all to read VichaiN's last post.
I fully understand his concern and particularly his comparison with Zimbabwe - a place far more relevant to Thailand's predicament, than the oft quoted Burma
"Ah the subtle flavour of irony used to create the impression that your words are in jest though they be sensible."
Anonymous, apart from a flippant last sentence, my words were not in jest.
You are an arrogant know all and a racist to boot.
There is little point in trying to discuss anything, with someone so focused.
Abhisit’s military government rejects Red Shirt peace offering, orders military crack down
' Abhisit’s military backed government has rejected negotiations with the Red Shirts and rejected the olive branch offered to the government by the Red Shirts yesterday. After meeting with various foreign ambassadors at the protest site, the Red Shirt leaders offered a compromise demand: dissolve parliament in 1 month and elections 2 months after that. But Abhisit’s military government, which has never been elected, has turned its back on a peaceful solution. They have ordered the army to use lethal force to disperse the peaceful protests within 48 hours. Abhisit and the army already have blood on their hands from the shooting of 21 civilians on 10th April.
' The Red Shirts are strengthening their defences, calling in the Red Shirt motorcycle riders to defend the barricades, urging people to join the protests (but not in red shirts so as not to be stopped by the military). Red Shirt supporters in the provinces should try to stop troop movements and if the army start a crack down in Bangkok, they should take any necessary measures in the provinces. Motorcycle riders in Bangkok should also take any necessary measures in such an event.
' The NGOs and so-called “peace activists” have failed to condemn the government and continue to provide legitimacy for government violence and the destruction of Democracy. '
That last is the truth. Due to government censorship the red shirts have no help from anyone... and amidst that drumbeat for blood they're crawling out of the woodwork, licking their lips in anticipation of another blood sacrifice in Buddhist Thailand.
Look at the tenor of the discussion on this site. Everyone whooping it up in support of Abhisit and his fascist crackdown, calling for blood in the streets... and the tinpot Abhisit has heard you all and is now going to provide it.
My heart is with the reds. They are the people of Thailand trying to gain control of their country. They will not be crushed. They will struggle on.
"Anonymous, apart from a flippant last sentence, my words were not in jest.
You are an arrogant know all and a racist to boot.
There is little point in trying to discuss anything, with someone so focused."
Ah - ad-hominem, the last stage of the lost argument. When you have nothing useful left to say, abuse the opponent in the hope of diverting focus away from the loss.
But you are right in one aspect at least, there is little point in your arguing a case that cannot be argued rationally, so to that extent, progress has been made by your surrendering the points you tried to argue.
Anon.
Grow your own dope - plant a yellow-shirt.
Vichai: I take your point, and I once had similar concerns. I seem to recall arguing on NM back in the day that the palace/network were at least constrained because they had an image to uphold (unlike Thaksin at that time - although things are different now that he's a poster boy for democracy:)
Events over the last few years have shown us that it's not really the kwai that need be feared - they are still learning - but the real ones to fear are those who think they know better than those 'uneducated' bumpkins.
I am astounded at the drivel that comes from the mouths (and especially the fingers on keyboards) of many highly 'educated' thai's - I cannot work it out whether it is irrational reverence from brainwashing, or is it merely semi-rational attempts at protecting vested interests which flow from being among the privileged in the current thai structure?
The old myths can no longer be sustained - it can go only one way from here, and it's just a matter of whether it's a smmoth or bumpy landing.
As more pieces fill the jigsaw, my thoughts now are more along the lines that you just have to trust the masses - let them choose the type of country they want, and who leads them there.
btw, thanks, but you don't owe me any apology.
"Abhisit is not a legitimate PM because he became PM courtesy of the turncoat brigand Newin Chidchob, whose MP's were cajoled by Anupong issuing bribes and threats for them to decamp and support Prem and the Palace's candidate, and the opportunity provided by a terminally corrupt judiciary under the thrall of Prem and the Palace."
As I said, governments are products of deals between the leaders, there's no rule against involvement of outsiders either.
And Anupong just as likely to do it again, and if not him, then everybody would fly to Dubai to negotiate the terms with Thaksin.
Always have been, always will be, and it has absolutely nothing to do with "one man one vote" principle.
Hobby, Abhisit's job and his first priority is to govern the country, seeking validation of his mandate is not necessary for doing his job, as he still has full support of his coalition partners in Parliament.
Mob pressure is not part of the constitutional process. He can heed it, as a voice of people, he can ignore it, too.
There's a bigger mob in the making demanding him to ignore the reds.
His response is clear and reasonable - I will make a decision for the benefit of the whole country, not any particular pressure group.
StanG: Abhisit the PM is the result of a military & judicial coup, not Newin's dealing! (that backroom deal was just the latest trick after the previous hands failed)
Don't you find it quite scary really that these people would prefer civil war (or it's potential eventuality) over giving the people an election?
What a warped view Abhisit (and you) seem to have: Dealing with those who had their votes stolen (red shirts) is seen as appeasement, yet we must worry about what yellows will do if he 'gives in' (when all that 'giving in' means is simply allowing an earlier election - no way they could allow such an injustice!)
Anonymous,
I wake up this morning and thankfully the Thai civil war has not yet begun. Inspired thus, I could not resist to gift you parting verses not meant to rhyme:
Title: The Prai prefers Cartoons
Fifty or so newspapers
That's what The Man said
In 50 languages too perhaps?
Awesome, impressive, deep!
So I promptly told a Thai prai,
"Expand your horizon"
Do you know what fifty means?
That's almost the UN! Big!
Oh yeah?
The Thai prai sneered,
That's just lots of newspapers
To wipe one big mother ass.
@StanG:
"His response is clear and reasonable - I will make a decision for the benefit of the whole country, not any particular pressure group."
Well, I must agree that those are the words he spoke, however that is not how it is received among those commentators and other people with an IQ higher than a potato (or a yellow-shirt). What they hear is slightly different:
"I will make a decision for the benefit of the ruling classes including (and especially) the Palace, whose wealth must be maintained at all costs in contrast to the poverty of those from whom they stole it by one means or another. In doing this, I must be careful to package the reactionary views of Prem and the Palace in a form that the propagandised monarchists drones will accept, so I must suggest that maintenance of the status-quo is in fact national security, and that my holding on to power at all costs is in fact the interests of all Thai people."
Thus is the spell cast, thus do the superstitious and unintelligent remember it and chant it as their own pathetic incantation. Thus are the great stupid unwashed hordes kept at bay and returned to their rightful place in the rice paddies of the changwats and the brothels of Bangkok."
It has worked every other time, but this time - with any luck.
Alongside Hobby, I am regularly astonished that seemingly intelligent people can be so propagandised and dogmatised as to believe the shit churned out by the rich and privileged for consumption by those whom they have deliberately kept poor and stupid for the convenience and further enrichment of the said rich and privileged. One of the more disgusting components of the overall disgusting modern Chinese culture.
Let us put one thing in context, and it is this; One man's wealth - 37 billion USD would provide a new house, modest means of transport and a couple of cows for the the poorest ten million Thais, instead of being used to buy more cloth of gold and undeserved glorification of would-be demi-god and his family.
And their hangers-on and sundry other blood-suckers of course, Mustn't forget the Abhisits and Prems of this world...
Seen like this, the crimes and excesses and greed of Thaksin pale into insignificance. This is what the elites are most desperate to keep hidden from the gaze of the common people - the real extent to which the rich and privileged have stolen from the sweat of the common brow and the blood of the common vein. This and nothing more is the *real* reason for Abhisit's desperation to hang on to power at all costs.
Anonymous,
You should really cut down on fifty newspapers man . . . and that's no rocket science advice.
You are ranting on about the Burmese, then the Khmers and now the Chinese.
Urgently consult a proctologist man! And save yourself lots of money from less newspaper need.
"Ah - ad-hominem, the last stage of the lost argument."
Aha! Now I've got it, your the same "anonymous" who lauded his superior knowledge and intellectual genius over on BP's blog.
Take Vichai's advice, get 50 newspapers and lock yourself in the bog - only come come out when you've excreted a considerable amount of crap.
Hobby, people have never been involved in formation of the government, they never voted for it and so they can't complain about losing something they never had.
If it was stolen, it was stolen from Thaksin.
@VichaiN, @GeeGee:
I don't suppose it's useful to point out that you are both now engaging in futile ad-hominems? It seems you don't recognise the pit you have fallen into. I understand it was the same for the dinosaurs.
Whilst it is disappointing to see you reduced to this, there is some satisfaction that the demolition was achieved so easily, just a few well-placed barbs and I have you frothing at the mouth, it really is too easy, hardly any effort at all really.
FYI GeeGee, I have never posted on BP under the moniker Anonymous, you appear to have mistaken me for someone else who also gave you a kicking. Seems like it might be a group sport, sport.
Grow up fellas, if your arguments are so easy to demolish then you must truly be scratching around for something intelligent to say.
Having said that, as true as it indubitably is, and as disapponting as your performance has indubitably been, I am ready to debate substantive matters if you are able to do so sensibly - here's a hint though: argue the points made by using facts, not the person making them by attempting personal slight.
If you cant do that, then take Mark Twain's advice: Better to say nothing and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
I'll buy you both a drink sometime, it must be miserable having no mates.
Thanks Anonymous, for clearing up that the person behind the mask is not the same as before.
I don't think the other "anonymous" (on BP) was nearly as good at it, as you.
Perhaps you are right,I should take your comments in the spirit of the debate and respond with facts and substance.
It's also interesting, you indicate I should focus on the post and not the poster. This morning I was thinking much the same about your posts. There isn't a lot of fact in what you say, but a lot of comments about the posters.
Thanks for the drinks offer.
If this current mess somehow moves to a peaceful conclusion (a big "if" that one), maybe we can have a drink without the bar room brawl...
Anonymous -
I'll be guessing you'd be Enrico,
or Benny or both,
I am guessing you won't be
offended,
these gentlemen certainly won't.
You are among the glorious illustrious,
I am telling you that only because they're true
Mark Lester you said . . that's in the movie The Prince, right?
I'll rush to see the rerun,
soon as I find a pal.
Enrico, Benny and a BKK lawyer,
if I recall well,
I truly sincerely envy your luck
in love . . money and those wonderful mates.
(could I be invited to tag along in your next Myanmar sojourn?)
Hey this state of ecumenical agreement is wonderful !
Perhaps, we (that includes of course VichaiN and our long suffering host, Hobby) can all have that drink one day??
Now if only all sides in this conflict could face their demons too...
Nice to see guys:) - if only the Thai political heavyweights could soak up some of the atmosphere, and all start working for the country, instead of their vested interests.
StanG/GeeGee/Hobby,
I suddenly realized the reason we're all having cold sweats is because we are presuming every actor in the deadly play we are watching are all morons. (we forgot one and yes he's still The One). I am thinking perhaps that is how that cunning criminal mind Thaksin meant to play this deadly chess game along . . . we're all seeing what he meant all of us to see . . . the bumpkin Red leaders . . his divorce to suggest his disarray . . the army of Red bigwigs flying to Dubai to bleed him dry (not possible, this man is the ultimate skinflint and remember he is the consummate micro-manager) . . . the Gen. Khatiya telegraphed moves before mayhems.
The short of it . . . with the criminal genius on top . . perhaps the finale won't be bloody messy after all. Thaksin's not insane of course . . . a civil war never had been his end.
All he wants is a triumphant return . . the cheering claps and tears of joy from his followers ... the Esaan champion finally and with much drama has returned.
(Behind the scenes Chalerm, Newin, Panlop they're all on it. With Thaksin's suborning powers, who knows who else? Anuphong???)
The rumor that Thaksin is dead is just that a rumor . . . from Thaksin himself I am sure.
If tomorrow, next day, or next, or NOW Thaksin S. suddenly appears at Rajaprasong to lead his followers back to safety to Esarn man that will be quite a sight!
That's not the finale we want . . . but who cares? I'll be clapping myself for the Oscar performance.
@Vichai N:
Oh for God's sake stop it. There are no reds under the bed and Thaksin is not the be-all and end-all of the Red Shirt movement you and your ilk seem so frightened of.
Go and talk to the Reds, do something other than descend into paranoia. The Reds by and large regards Thaksin as a symbol of what the amart in Thailand feel free to do to dissenting views.
The King, the alace, the Army, the Government, the bureucracy, the judiciary. They are all tarred with the same dismal brush, and they have done it to themselves.
Thai nstitutions are corrupt from top to bottom, they thrive and have prospered on corruption and dishonesty, it is endemic.
Small wonder then that many people thin this house is delapidated beyond repair. Pull it down and start again.
Oh, and hire different builders, this lot have enshrined Thai incompetence for way too long already.
And for God's sake stop it with the conspiracy theory, it just makes you seem odd.
Anomanous - you mean you won't applaud if my pirated-dvd version of the Thaksin appearance by some voodoo science strikes?
Lots of royalist sentiments conveyed through my FB network lately. There was also an anti-red-shirts walk organized in CM lately (saw the picture of the walk/rally in which people wore yellow)through FB as well (e.g.
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/group.php?gid=105034776205793
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/photo.php?pid=4048871&id=658829388&fbid=386022659388
Thanks for that Joy - quite interesting (and scary, IMO):
"The aim for setting up this group is to support our king, His Majesty King Bhumibol of Thailand. We do believe that His Majesty does nothing wrong, and all of what His Majesty has done so far to help all Thai citizens and anyone who live in Thailand is invaluable. If you do think so, please come to join us and help spread the word!"
Unfortunately, it's illegal in Thailand for any alternative view to be stated.
btw, can you summarise the gist of what your Nidhi link was about (for us unable to read thai)?
"Go and talk to the Reds" - pointless, they only repeat the party line.
If the party line is that Thaksin is a symbol, that's what they'd all say, in unison.
Just a very brief summary: ( i should reread it again and give a better summary later)
: In the article he is quite sarcastic of the educated Thais, criticizing them for not wanting to let go of the status quo that benefits them. He also said the well-educated Thais i.e. uni professors with doctorate degrees are nowadays quite useless/hopeless because no one listen to them anymore (ordinary people don't give a dam abt them , because the inequalities and injuctice are so obvious to the poor nowadays so they won't be appeased easily.. etc etc.. Nidhi also (sarcastically IMO) suggests that the elite need to adjust to make class inequalities and exploitation of the poor less obvious if they want to maintain (some? of) their power ( In all societies there are equalities but they should not be this stark like in Thailand).
The summary is not so complete and i largely summarize things from my memory.. will need to reread the article again.
StanG - go try it - have a discussion with a few reds, and then discuss the same issues with a few yellows (not yourself:) - then lets hear your feedback.
I would suggest you try discussing a few somewhat 'sensitive' topics just to see which group are the more rational thinkers - I've tried to keep it legal, so you could try to discuss the following:
- should military coups occur?
- why are military coups & tearing up of constitutions given royal endorsement?
- if someone thinks differently regarding the monarchy, does that make them not a thai?
- should a person face punishment for having a different view?
Thanks Joy - could he be referring to how the elite still get great privileges in other 'developed' societies, but the inequality is not so obvious, and they are more subtle about showing their advantages?
Do you think there is something in the Thai psychological makeup and it's heirachical system which makes it difficult for the thai elite to move more down that road?
(I am thinking of the aversion to loss of face here too)
Seems to me like those characteristics could also be in play regarding the current political dispute - particularly the way Abhisit & his minders wont go to the obvious solution (an early 'clear the air' election) unless it's on their terms?
@StanG:
""Go and talk to the Reds" - pointless, they only repeat the party line.
If the party line is that Thaksin is a symbol, that's what they'd all say, in unison."
Funny, that's what people keep saying about you Stan, with good reason so far as I can see. Please note that this is an "is" and a "have done" situation, not a "would be" or "would do" speculation proffered so you don't have to make the effort of actually going to talk to anyone. All of which might produce results contrary to your rather fixed world-view. The way of the sheep must be much more comfortable for you.
You once more demonstrate your kwai gene, you know, the one that determines your susceptibility to being led by the nose.
@Vichai N:
"Anomanous - you mean you won't applaud if my pirated-dvd version of the Thaksin appearance by some voodoo science strikes?"
Anomanouse?
I mean that you should consider the possibility that the conspiracies exist only in your mind, and that they're not all out to get you.
However tempting that might be.
"The aim for setting up this group is to support our king, His Majesty King Bhumibol of Thailand. We do believe that His Majesty does nothing wrong, and all of what His Majesty has done so far to help all Thai citizens and anyone who live in Thailand is invaluable. If you do think so, please come to join us and help spread the word!"
This level of programming is always a worry.
Drones, swat them all.
I am constantly amazed that people, who are distinguished from the rest of the mammal kingdom by the size of their cerebral cortex, are so often prepared to believe what not even a smart cat, dog or monkey would find convincing.
The more royalists I meet, the more I admire my dog.
"might produce results"
And so might banging your head against the wall.
Saying something reasonable would only be a start, btw, it's a long, long way to go from there to setting a reasonable agenda for the whole movement, which has been manipulated by rather repulsive leadership for years and there's no sign of any emerging bottom up sentiments.
@StanG:
Sometimes, this blogging business requires extremes of patience and forbearance...
Stan, unsurprisingly, you missed the point, though it seemed plain enough for all to see.
The point was that you said "they would...", wheres I am n the position of saying "they did not..."
It seems that no matter how hard I try, I can never quite manage to underestimate the intelligence of royalists... same everywhere, I suppose UK, Thailand, the kwai gene is a satistical fact however dismal it makes human beings appear.
baaaaa - he's wonderful doh!
mooooo - he can do no wrong doh!
baaaaa - I love the man, even though I never met him doh!
mooooo - I love the man because all my friends say I should doh!
Doesn't this ever get tiresome for you Stan? I hope they are paying you well to consistently choose the rectal view.
Anom-an(o)us-e' . . . I thought you're French? It rhymes with another French name Anom-alous-e'
But pardone ...signore, I am actually better at Zheeneeze, even Booorleesque, ole!
God I should shoot myself but anyway .. . what's that again?
Aha! you rrrrrrrrr interrrrested in my deeeeveeeedeee because its pirated . . . I knew it! I knew it! I knew beneath that fancy hair . . . err fancy airs . . . you are cheap! I must you warn its Korean produced Pahurd-quality Oh quality! ('Oh' is street slang for OK in case you did not know) The actors are Korean . . and yes it stars Rain and he's hot! And hundreds of bootleg Korean dvds . . Korean TV drama series and there's my cut.
It'll cost you some . . . but quality considering they're still cheap.
It seems that lately the educated Thais are trying to convince everyone that Red-shirts are synonymous with danger/destruction of the country and of the institution. Social approval and the law is on their side (the academics who side with the establishment or maybe part of the establishment themselves).Moreover, in Thailand it seems like if u are not part of the group, u are virtually powerless.
Joy: They already look brainwashed - just imagine how foolish they could be made to look if those arguing against them were allowed to do so without their hands tied (by LM laws & Computer Crimes Act).
I wonder - are they also blaming foreigner influence for anyone who doesn't agree with them?
(see this for an example of how that line of thinking goes - it would be funny if it wasn't serious)
we don;t know much/or maybe very little about our country.i used to have my own suspicions but those were not explained till i got access to books outside the country. But to live a life in Thailand is complicated. Unless u are part of a group , or unless u have something that gives u strength, how could u go against the mainstream?
While it's worse in Thailand, I think there are similar issues outside Thailand too - most who cannot align with the mainstream end up still forming into a tribe, as its human nature (just that their tribe might be a lot smaller than the main tribe:)
In Thailand, of course, it's much worse due to the insidious nature of the system, where the LM laws, combined with the very systematic propaganda, leads to so many Thai's having a warped view.
On the bright side, I see an accidental by-product of the reds uprising is that more and more inside (and outside) Thailand are having an eye-opening.
Some already know about what I call the the noble lie (or charade), and for their own vested interest they perpetuate it (to protect their privileges).
Yet for others the eye opeing is just too shocking, as it goes against all their previous conditioning - they must resist at all costs, lest they lose their way because their lifelong beliefs are being turned upside down.
If you have had the eye-opening, then about the only thing you can do is to try to raise questions that might plant the seeds of doubt in the believers minds, so that they become motivated to seek the answers for themselves (which unfortunately goes against the thai 'system', where 'truths' are imposed from the top, and those below are expected to believe merely because they are being told by those higher up the chain)
Baby steps - it's about all you can do.
Joy: My above comment is for you.
Also, what one perceives as the 'mainstream' view probably depends on ones particular social circumstances - peers/colleagues/circle of friends etc - for some that may appear yellow tinged, but for others it may be more red.
Hobby, you make your "eye opening" sound like a religious experience, like conversion to Christianity.
Just like with the Bible, millions of people have heard your point of view and they are not impressed at all.
Only a couple of year ago you were just the same as everyone else. Now you talk like "born again" about exactly the same things.
Don't tell me you had no idea of the existence of "noble lie" or "charade" phenomena in 2006.
StanG: I freely admit I'm learning as I go, and am a bit like a born again preacher (not religious, more in the mould of a reformed alcoholic who is now preaching about being a teatotaller - that IS me actually:)
Before 2006 I never really considered why the political system was such a mess - just thought it was the 'nature of the beast'.
I basically uncritically accepted the big myth, and of course I didn't like the way Thaksin's family businesses intertwined so much wih government business, and considered his tax avoidance hypoctitical as it contradicted his role as the champion of the poor.
I'm still critical of Thaksin on that issue, together with the way the drug war was conducted, but I now realise he isn't by a long shot the real source of the evil in Thailand.
It wasn't till after the 2006 coup, and once I saw Handley's ideas being proved in spades that I became prepared to challenge my own conditioning.
I think I keep coming back to the noble lie issue because now I see more clearly how the charde works, and the vast number of co-conspirators (if not 'in the know', then maybe compliant cooperatives might be softer words than conspirators, but the overall effect is the same)
Anyway, at least I have an open mind - if an argument is good enough, I am prepared to take it on board - so far your arguments have not been good enough (apart from your calling out the EC Dems disolution announcement for what it was)
Keep trying:)
Hobby,
OK I'll move on. If you are already convinced and enlightened ... it won't be fun for me anymore.
Some parting questions but if you don't want to answer then don't. (a) You're an Aussie, right? Just curious ... are you married to a Thai or living in Thailand?
VichaiN: I don't have blind faith in anyone, and am only ever convinced until the next enlightenment:)
I agree with much of what you say about Thaksin, but you have chosen to make him your focus, when it should be clear by now that he's a minor player when it comes to what's really rotten in Thailand.
Our major difference seems to be that I no longer believe anyone is capable of or qualified to 'direct' democracy, so its best to just trust in the people as a whole (whereas previously I thought something like Plato's Philosopher Kings concept might be able to work in Thailand).
I don't want to put words in your mouth, but by the questions (a), (b) & (c) you posed a lo0ng way back in this thread, I think you might still be a believer?
No comment on the other questions, other than to say I could not give a simple yes/no answer to any of the questions.
Hobby, consider that there have been millions of people engaged in developing and suppressing Thai democracy over past 70+ years, why do you blame everything they have done on one single source?
And why do you assume this source is completely immune and independent from the rest of the society?
It looks more like a search for a scapegoat to me.
StanG: I'm looking at the big picture (the thai 'system') - of course one person cannot take all the blame, but then again why should the individual who sits at the top of such a system be absolved of any culpability in its creation?
or you might like to substitute 'continuation' for 'creation' in the last sentence above
Hobby,
It's ok Hobby for the un-answer as your answer. I had an instinct that would be your response . . . so I conveniently gave you that exit.
From tortured, now to enlightened state ... moving on to idealist is what you think where you are now.
. . . are you?
VichaiN: I'd say still a tortured idealist, open to enlightenment, but not seeking it (just in case it doesn't exist:)
btw, congratulations on being comment 100 on this thread - your prize can be claimed here.
Stan asks a good question, to which Hobby's reply is:
"StanG: I'm looking at the big picture (the thai 'system') - of course one person cannot take all the blame, but then again why should the individual who sits at the top of such a system be absolved of any culpability in its creation?"
For me, the question is essentially only one side of a position, for it must surely follow that is one man is set up to be the father, to take the credit for all that is good, then he must also take the blame for all that is bad. He cannot pick and choose, Nations are not boxes of chocolates though he and his ilk have treated this one as a personal ATM for a long time.
If as it is claimed, this person sanctioned the ouster of Thaksin because he became jealous of his popularity, then insofar as I am concerned, he needs his ass kicked and thereafter to be excluded from the company of all right-thinking men.
I have no stars or shit in my eyes, 5 years ago I loathed and detsted Thaksin, and I cheerfully accept that I did so because of the things I was told about him. Then I learned to think for myself. What we are seeing is karma in one way, a concept which this gentleman has been quick to recommend to others that they acquiesce to as a part of the completely facile 'sufficiency economy' crackpot theory, but appears less willing to accept himself.
Every day brings a lesson to be learned. Smart people accept the learning and move on. Fools resist the learning and come to a shuddering halt. As soon as you begin to believe the myth you yourself have created, you are lost and unfit to lead.
Today, among the multitudinous drones who have always believed what they're told to believe and may always do so, an increasing number of others with sharper brains and better insights dwell in self-protecting silence, waiting the time. The ludicrous and child-like Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd notes - apparently with a straight face - that "the red leaders are using false information with the intention of attacking the high institution which is loved and respected by all Thais"
Evidently all Thais love and respect except those that don't. I have no idea which buffoon writes this spruiker's speeches for him but he badly wants sacking and quickly.
In conclusion, I can certainly tell you from conversations I've had with numerous people in Issaan that there is no ambiguity at all about who is to blame for this mess, though Prem and her ladyship are the ones that are spoken of as a metaphor for the real focus of ire. Even inRedland, caution rightly prevails - for the moment.
No sympathy - Dad has patronised, stolen from and abused his children for a very long time. Now the kids are growing up not to love him any more.
Som nam na, all good things come to an end.
".. to take the credit for all that is good, then he must also take the blame for all that is bad"
First, I'm not sure the King is taking the credit himself.
Second, I'm pretty sure the current fight between "his" people makes him unhappy and, possibly, thinking about what he has done wrong personally.
Latest speech, about "duty", is rather telling in this respect.
You do what you have to do to the best of your abilities, and don't worry about the results, results depend on god and karma.
Whatever his personal feelings and thoughts are, my original point was rather about people's role in this mess, not King's.
Somehow the fashion now is to assign all blame to the King.
I dont put all blame on the King, but we have already had this discussion on your blog.
We each have to guess for ourselves whether he is:
(a) 'weak' (might be weak & unprincipled - that's Giles' view, or as others say weak & captive)
or
(b) 'a part of it' (an active player)
or
(c) sorry, there is no other choice
@StanG:
First, I'm not sure the King is taking the credit himself.
Perhaps not but I suspect you are wrong. The whole principle of the network monarchy he has built for himself is that you command by nods and winks and nudges, that way, everything is deniable or (as one of the favourite Thai expressions goes) , 'misunderstanding'. This permits the now obvious fiction about non-involvement in politics to be freely propagated. For me it just doesn't wash. I am a manager, I am responsible for what I allow my staff to say or do on my behalf.
Second, I'm pretty sure the current fight between "his" people makes him unhappy and, possibly, thinking about what he has done wrong personally.
Well I doubt it frankly, for a lot of reasons. Actually I don't think any of the gentlemen (or ladies) at the top give a fig for the Thai people other than as human Kwai. If they did then they would be actively pursuing policies of education, expansion, moral growth and enlightenment, which we all know they are not doing. By their deeds shalt thou know them, not by what they claim their intentions to be. This is where little brother Abhisit has come so badly unstuck - the gulf between what he says and what he does is just too big for any of it to be taken seriously any more. He no longer has the benefit of doubt, he wanted the test and he has failed the test.
Latest speech, about "duty", is rather telling in this respect.
Again you might be right but I doubt it. These people have arrogantly and impertinently equated their interests with beg those of the nation for a long time. Against this background, 'duty' merely becomes a metaphor for looking after the interests of the amart.
You do what you have to do to the best of your abilities, and don't worry about the results, results depend on god and karma.
Well, the gentleman has been very active in claiming credit for doing lots of things that taxes actually paid for, I assume he is smart enough to know this is fraudulent. As with everything in the Thai state he has created (or allowed to be created in in his name), appearance takes precedence over substance. I would feel somewhat more charitable about it if he would actually do somemthing for his people because so far as I can see, what has been done as opposed to what has been said doesn't actually add up to very much. He made himself pretty rich in the process of course, he was careful to do that. Perhaps if he had built an education system for his people that showed the same enterprise and flair as the empire-building that was done, perhaps Thailand would not now be handicapped with an average IQ of less than 90.
I recently saw a comparison between th social and economic development of South Korea and Thailand since the early 1960's. The contrast could not be more marked and speaks volumes for the life of dedication to his people….
Whatever his personal feelings and thoughts are, my original point was rather about people's role in this mess, not King's.
How convenient that you choose to focus on the symptom and not the disease. Not good doctoring though.
Somehow the fashion now is to assign all blame to the King.
So how do you think fashions become fashions?
:Hobby:
Please feel free to substitute alternative words, it's sometimes difficult to know how close is too close to the wind...
Oh, yes.
One line of thought is that he is weak and has been manipulated all along, another line of thought is that he is a supreme manipulator himself.
How convenient - either way he is liable, even if they are mutually exclusive, if you want to blame him, you can't go wrong.
And now, with a designated scapegoat, you can't go wrong no matter what you do.
In the absence of real transpacency, all we can go on is the record thats there for all to see - what other possible conclusions can be drawn apart from (a) or (b) ?
@StanG:
"One line of thought is that he is weak and has been manipulated all along, another line of thought is that he is a supreme manipulator himself."
Well, having read that offensive book about his dog, I believe he is clearly a manipulator, though he may be weak as Giles suggests as well. It is often people who are weak who manipulate in the worst ways so the 2 things are not mutually exclusive.
I defy anyone to read that book critically and come away not feeling sick to their stomach, it really is nauseating, though he doesn't go so far as to give the damn dog a military rank. An absence of complete eccentricity is a small enough saving grace but when aren't many saving graces to count, each is important.
Anonymous: Just a reminder to not get (unnecessarily) personal in your judgements of the people we are discussing here, and of the people posting here.
With respect, and I hope you understand.
@Hobby:
Noted - was just responding to the point StanG made. Difficult topic and clarity is not always sensible. I shall try to strike a more cautious balance.
Please feel free to edit any of my posts according to your best judgement.
Vichai N said to Nganadeeleg: "No governments I know of would yield to intimidation or terror . . ."
You forgot the intimidation from the..."yellow shirts"?
I suspects that "Vichai N" is Stan G's Thai name.
Stan G said: "Hobby, consider that there have been millions of people engaged in developing and suppressing Thai democracy over past 70+ years, why do you blame everything they have done on one single source?"
Because that single source is a constant throughout the 70 years.
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